PDA

View Full Version : 1941: Masquerade in Ukraine..



Chevan
08-08-2010, 11:52 AM
accudentally foung the interesting photo of Ukrainian greetings of Nazis in their national dress.

http://i055.radikal.ru/1006/26/e5d3b95c9738.jpg
http://2816.iz.piccy.info.nyud.net/i5/16/28/202816/s640x480.jpg
http://s45.radikal.ru/i107/1006/37/ba2f8a67f5e8.jpg
Female parade of eastern untermenshens:)That's cool...
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-2694.jpg
German commander gets the congrads from woman.
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-2697.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-3009.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-2920.jpg
DO somebody know who is that hook-nose aryan?
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-2921.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-3497.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-3087.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-13927.jpg
The staged photo for propogandic purposes. Kinda that "abundance" is waiting for Ukrainaisn during "free life" under German ruling..
To the happiness, the future gauleiter Erich Koch doesn't see that:)He showed them the "abundence" in 1943-44.

flamethrowerguy
08-08-2010, 12:04 PM
Don't know who he is (yet) but in the first place he's not a military commander but an NSDAP leader (see oversized eagle on cap).

Chevan
08-08-2010, 12:05 PM
Yes sure, he is party leader. But who is that?

leccy
08-08-2010, 12:53 PM
A staged propaganda event it may have been but initially at least, the German forces were seen as liberators as opposed to a conquering force in the Ukraine.

Some judicious actions on the part of Soviet partisans and Nazi responses changed that as the war went on though.

Chevan
08-09-2010, 01:04 AM
A staged propaganda event it may have been but initially at least, the German forces were seen as liberators as opposed to a conquering force in the Ukraine.

have to say far not all the ethnical groups of multi-national Ukraine looked at this as at "liberation".Say largest polish and jewish minorities in Western Ukraine were terrorised and murdered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-5gprlxoCo&feature=player_embedded) since the most began of German occupation.By the Ukrainain nationalists.


Some judicious actions on the part of Soviet partisans and Nazi responses changed that as the war went on though.
The partisan movenment was a result of cruel occupation policy , i have to add.

Chevan
08-09-2010, 01:52 AM
I've got it..
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-2920.jpg
The "hook- nose" is a Nazis Governor-General of Poland Hans Frank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Frank)
Who was responsible for policy of "germanisation" in that area.
By what was he doing in Ukraine as claime the photo source?The friendly visit?
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/g/ugunskrusts83/PIC_2-3087.jpg
the second one is the the governor of Galicia distric Otto Wдchter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_W%C3%A4chter)
and his hinest face
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/images/wachter.jpg
He was also a great "enthusiast" of ethnic purges in Western Ukraine.

Uyraell
08-09-2010, 06:19 AM
Chevan, I may have this wrong, but memory says the sharing of bread and salt was a traditional welcome in the Ukraine.
That's how the images look to me, at any rate: a simple gesture of welcome to the Germans. Is this the case shown here?
The second question I have is one that perhaps only a Russian or Ukrainian could answer, and it is this: is it likely that the Ukrainian folk merely carried out the ceremony in order to create a lack of suspicion in the Germans, to "mentally disarm" the Germans in a sense, so as to be better able to operate against them (`a la Partisan-mode) at a later stage?

I'm a little bit ignorant of the mentality (with regard to the Germans) of either an ethnic Russian or an ethnic Ukrainian at that point of time in the war.
So, please pardon my ignorance, as I assure you, my friend, not one atom of offence is intended.

Kind and Respectful Regards Chevan my friend, Uyraell.
I'm trying to understand a thing which my westernised upbringing doesn't quite match in cultural terms.

Chevan
08-09-2010, 07:02 AM
Chevan, I may have this wrong, but memory says the sharing of bread and salt was a traditional welcome in the Ukraine.
That's how the images look to me, at any rate: a simple gesture of welcome to the Germans. Is this the case shown here?
The second question I have is one that perhaps only a Russian or Ukrainian could answer, and it is this: is it likely that the Ukrainian folk merely carried out the ceremony in order to create a lack of suspicion in the Germans, to "mentally disarm" the Germans in a sense, so as to be better able to operate against them (`a la Partisan-mode) at a later stage?

You absolutly right, my friend, the "bread and salt" is a traditional ceremony among all Eastern Slavs( not just in Ukraine).
But it wasn't a simple guest of welcome germans. Coz those people, shown in photo, are happy and dress well, went in SS-style parades . They celebrate the "liberation" and frankly glad.
It's not obviously created to operate against Germans- coz Germans were allies of Ukraine Nationalist that period. However Germans denied any claims for Indpendent Ukraine soon after occupation.Thus, Germans administration clearly made a priorities - the slavs are subhuman who has no right for OWN independent state. At the same time Germany generously promised the lands to Tatar's Muslim and everybody else who hate the slavs and were ready to colloborate .
Nazis propogand widely used such a "welcome parades" to justify their "special liberation mission in East". The stupidity of Ukrainian sycopants who glorified Nazis- was that they thought , if nazis let them to exterminate all the poles , jews and moskaleis ( pro-russians) around , then they likely could avoid the same fate from Nazis hands.Very danger and foolish supposition.

Uyraell
08-09-2010, 08:08 AM
You absolutly right, my friend, the "bread and salt" is a traditional ceremony among all Eastern Slavs( not just in Ukraine).
But it wasn't a simple guest of welcome germans. Coz those people, shown in photo, are happy and dress well, went in SS-style parades . They celebrate the "liberation" and frankly glad.
It's not obviously created to operate against Germans- coz Germans were allies of Ukraine Nationalist that period. However Germans denied any claims for Indpendent Ukraine soon after occupation.Thus, Germans administration clearly made a priorities - the slavs are subhuman who has no right for OWN independent state. At the same time Germany generously promised the lands to Tatar's Muslim and everybody else who hate the slavs and were ready to colloborate .
Nazis propogand widely used such a "welcome parades" to justify their "special liberation mission in East". The stupidity of Ukrainian sycopants who glorified Nazis- was that they thought , if nazis let them to exterminate all the poles , jews and moskaleis ( pro-russians) around , then they likely could avoid the same fate from Nazis hands.Very danger and foolish supposition.

That explains much, my friend, and my profound thanks to you for your very clear answer.
Which means I now have to ask another, possibly sensitive question, and again, I ask it in order to understand, the matter, and without in any way seeking to offend by asking.
Question is:
Didn't they see it coming, and if not, why not?

By that stage, the Germans didn't exactly have a clean track record in any of the territories they had occupied, be it France, Holland, the Baltic states, or wherever.
I'm confused that the Ukrainians, Nationalist or otherwise (without even mentioning the various other national/racial groupings, Tartars, Azeris, etc), didn't know of the fates that had already befallen the other lands,
and thus didn't realise the dangers they had set themselves up for.

Kind and Respectful Regards Chevan my friend, Uyraell.

Chevan
08-09-2010, 08:58 AM
I now have to ask another, possibly sensitive question, and again, I ask it in order to understand, the matter, and without in any way seeking to offend by asking.
Question is:
Didn't they see it coming, and if not, why not?
.
They definitelly saw what was going on.But being, the Ethnic-racist/extremist they didn't think much ( deep) about how can it be profitable for their state strategically.Fanally , the Ukrainian-Nazis colloboration was explained by the .. common hate to other races ( who lived next door ) and has brought nothing except the new blood and massacres in Ukraine.
They were so happy thay are "liberated" that were TOO busy to think what might happend with peoples who lived among them.And Nazis were happy they such easy can to tear slavic peoples up.
The Ethnic Nationalism is a dangerest thing ever been.

Rising Sun*
08-09-2010, 09:13 AM
I don't know anything about the different groups in the Ukraine.

Some obviously supported the Nazis, which wasn't surprising at the time as there were fascist movements all over Europe and even in America and Britain.

But what were the ethnic differences?

Was it a bit like Yugoslavia when it collapsed after Tito into civil, ethnic and religious wars? Not unlike Yugoslavia during WWII in some equally vile and violent respects.

Uyraell
08-09-2010, 09:58 AM
I don't know anything about the different groups in the Ukraine.

Some obviously supported the Nazis, which wasn't surprising at the time as there were fascist movements all over Europe and even in America and Britain.

But what were the ethnic differences?

Was it a bit like Yugoslavia when it collapsed after Tito into civil, ethnic and religious wars? Not unlike Yugoslavia during WWII in some equally vile and violent respects.

RS* my Aussie mate, you've stolen My thunder just a little, because that set of questions was among the ones I had planned to ask. **Hands you another amber-coloured refreshment**

These things interest me, not least because the information in the west is either distorted or quite often biased, and I've had to wait over half my life to get anywhere near/near- to-finding a source which is likely to be closer to the various truths of the matters than those available heretofore.

Kind and Respectful Regards, RS* my Aussie mate, Uyraell.

Uyraell
08-09-2010, 11:02 AM
They definitelly saw what was going on.But being, the Ethnic-racist/extremist they didn't think much ( deep) about how can it be profitable for their state strategically.Fanally , the Ukrainian-Nazis colloboration was explained by the .. common hate to other races ( who lived next door ) and has brought nothing except the new blood and massacres in Ukraine.
They were so happy thay are "liberated" that were TOO busy to think what might happend with peoples who lived among them.And Nazis were happy they such easy can to tear slavic peoples up.
The Ethnic Nationalism is a dangerest thing ever been.

I understand you well, my friend:
The old "divide and conquer" technique.
I do hope I have not offended by asking these things;
I have tried very hard to be careful with my words, and respectful of a set of things my western culture/upbringing has not really taught me to understand.
Further: if by some mischance I have caused any offence, I Apologise to you, Chevan.

It is difficult for me to understand a thing which includes cultural backgrounds which your eyes might already know, but my eyes, from a different cultural tradition, might not even know exist. And: I truly do want to understand these things.

I Agree completely with you about Ethnic Nationalism: it is a ferociously dangerous thing, no-matter how benign it might appear to be.

Warm, Kind, and Respectful Regards Chevan my friend, Uyraell.

Chevan
08-09-2010, 02:00 PM
But what were the ethnic differences?

Was it a bit like Yugoslavia when it collapsed after Tito into civil, ethnic and religious wars? Not unlike Yugoslavia during WWII in some equally vile and violent respects.
The difference in a scale , mate.
the Yugoslavia is not a monoethnical state - there is never been such a Yugoslavic nation, Coz from most beginning it were Union( federation) of different Southern Slavic nations. The collapse of Yugoslavia has brought to the Ethnic War , the collape of Nazis controlled Ukraine has brought to an mass Ethnical Murders of a essential ( but relatively smal -up to 5% of total population) Ethnical minorities by the Ukrainain nationalists.The Ethical clearings in Volun and Galicia, in 1943-44 when The Ukrainain nationalists went out of Nizis control - the bloody slaygheting of Polish minorities for few months has almost cleaned poles out there.This small Holocaust which was fully on responsibility the Ukrainian Nationalists has folowed since most 1941 when many traitors went on parades imagine they are the "equal race" to Germans.
Nazis just laugh and support that show for their political purposes.

flamethrowerguy
08-09-2010, 03:49 PM
The German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) offers some beautiful color photos of such an event (it was indeed not only done to welcome high-level Nazis etc.). Near Poltava, summer 1941:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Bundesarchiv_Bild_169-0162%2C_Bei_Poltawa%2C_Ukrainier_in_Nationaltracht .jpg
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archives/barchpic/search/_1235674917/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=19

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Bundesarchiv_Bild_169-0163%2C_Bei_Poltawa%2C_Ukrainier_in_Nationaltracht .jpg
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archives/barchpic/search/_1235674917/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=20

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Bundesarchiv_Bild_169-0165%2C_Bei_Poltawa%2C_Ukrainier_in_Nationaltracht .jpg
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archives/barchpic/search/_1235674917/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=22

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_169-0166%2C_Bei_Poltawa%2C_Ukrainier_in_Nationaltracht .jpg
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archives/barchpic/search/_1235674917/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=28

Chevan
08-10-2010, 05:05 AM
The German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) offers some beautiful color photos of such an event (it was indeed not only done to welcome high-level Nazis etc.). Near Poltava, summer 1941:

Poltava is a Central Ukraine there were never Nazis-greeting parades.Therefore the Nazis bosses didn't go there a often. Civil peoples meet the Wermacht mostly friendly (at least until the SS-troops arrived and first ethnic clearings and "anti-partisanen actions" began). Such a rural scenes were common also for the Middle and Southern Russia. My gramma told me in my native city of Tichoreck ( Krasnodar area) Germans had arrived in end of1942, but in mid 1943 they abandoned ,be folowed to the general withdraw from Caucaus.She told me that ordinary germans soldiers were enough neutral, however the local puppet Police started immediatelly the tortures and killings of former Soviet officials like the Chairman of local collective farm and members of Comunist party.Some traitor has discovered them to a germans administration. Later the traitor has been hanged by NKVD.

Tim.D
08-13-2010, 11:56 PM
I don't know anything about the different groups in the Ukraine.

Some obviously supported the Nazis, which wasn't surprising at the time as there were fascist movements all over Europe and even in America and Britain.

But what were the ethnic differences?

Was it a bit like Yugoslavia when it collapsed after Tito into civil, ethnic and religious wars? Not unlike Yugoslavia during WWII in some equally vile and violent respects.

Dear Rising Sun,
after the I World War Poland was a very multiethnic and multicultural state, unlike today.
The Polish state before 1939 had very different borders than it has now after the 2 World War.
Large parts of what is now Ukraine, Lithuanaia and Beloruss were parts of its territory.
Please look at the articles about the Polish National Census of 1931 on Wikipedia,
and the map of the mother tongues of its citizens (1937):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poland1937linguistic.jpg

Conflicts were plenty, as You say "civil, ethnic and religious" but also economic.
(Polish nobles sine times of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth had more land and wealth than lets say their Ukrainian neighbours).
All those conflicts lead to genocide and reprisal killings during the war just like in the former Yugoslavia.
The biggest of those from the Polish perspective were the massacres of Poles in Volhynia.
Arguably the uninational character of Poland after the war may be the only good thing that came out of it for the Poles.
I can very well see Poland taking the Yugoslavian road in the east after the collapse of the USSR in the early 90's had it not occurred.
But it also saddens me that we lost a lost the multicultural and ethnic aspect of my country and as some Germanas we
Poles also have a lot of sentiment for the former Polish lands in the east.
(I'm actually departing today for a whole week to Lviv [Ukraine] as a turist as part of my vacation, just like the Germans who come here to Wroclaw [former German city name Breslau]).

Kregs
04-24-2011, 11:48 PM
Arguably the uninational character of Poland after the war may be the only good thing that came out of it for the Poles.

Looking at our history from a distance, yes, we could say that that was the best thing to come out of World War II, but let us not forget that the war gave us forty-four years of Communism, a glaring fact we won't easily forget.



Poles also have a lot of sentiment for the former Polish lands in the east.
(I'm actually departing today for a whole week to Lviv [Ukraine] as a turist as part of my vacation, just like the Germans who come here to Wroclaw [former German city name Breslau]).

Yes, I agree. We have a great fondness for Lviv and Vilnius, both cities we lost to the Ukrainians and Lithuanians. I tend to think of my relatives who used to live there in Lviv, and that attractive Ukrainian girl I used to, well, um, smooch in the woods. :D ;)

In September, I'm planning on going back to Poland. Hopefully I'll find everything to my liking but, as is often the case with people who have come back to their mother country after a long exile, I'll probably not even recognize my own town. 64 years is a long time, and things change everyday over there. I'll be lucky if I even recognize some street signs.