PDA

View Full Version : Insider's Story of Hess' Flight



Typokitty
06-29-2010, 04:45 PM
The Inside Story of the Hess Flight
ANONYMOUS

On 10 May 1941, Rudolf Hess made his daring flight from Germany to Britain in a vain bid to stop the tragic conflict between two nations he admired and loved. When Hitler's Deputy parachuted to earth from a Messerschmitt fighter over south Scotland, Germany and Britain had already been at war with each other for twenty months.

It is well known that Hess made this unprecedented move to impress on Britain's war leaders just how earnestly Germany desired peace. But even after the passage of forty years, much about the famous episode remains shrouded in mystery. The biggest question is whether Hitler knew in advance about the flight. Did he even order Hess on this mission of peace, as some insist? We cannot be sure if Hess would reveal the truth if he could. His ardent loyalty to Hitler might keep him from telling the whole story even if he were able. The truth may not be known until the secret British government documents on the matter are one day finally removed from the closed archives and made available to the world in uncensored form.

Still, there is strong evidence that Hess risked his life for peace under orders from Adolf Hitler himself. In its issue of May 1943, the American Mercury published "The Inside Story of the Hess Flight," a remarkable article which self-assuredly reported that the flight was personally directed by Hitler and completely expected by the British.

In 1943 the American Mercury was a popular, highly successful and very "establishment" monthly. It was quite different from the iconoclastic journal that H. L. Mencken had founded and edited many years before.

Although the article on the Hess flight appeared anonymously, the magazine's editors vouched for its accuracy: "The writer, a highly reputable observer, is known to us and we publish this article with full faith in its sources." The Reader's Digest published a condensed version of the piece in its July 1943 issue and likewise declared it accurate: "According to Allan A. Michie, The Reader's Digest's London correspondent, this account of the Hess flight corresponds to the version accepted by well-informed journalists in Britain."

Written in the midst of war, the author's bellicose joy at the failure of the Hess peace venture may appear regrettable and even contemptible today. Still, the information it contains (if correct) puts both Germany and Britain in a very different light than the one originally intended by the author. Because of it

s unquestionable historical importance, this article deserves serious consideration today.

-- Mark Weber

I

Why Rudolf Hess took the sky road to Scotland has never been revealed officially, principally because two leaders of Allied strategy, Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, believed at the time that no useful purpose could be served by the telling. Hess was consigned to the limbo of hush-hush and all attempts to probe the craziest episode of the war were resolutely suppressed.

Today, two years after, many Englishmen and a few Americans know exactly why Hess came to England, and most of those in possession of the true story feel that it should now be told. For one thing, it would place before critics of Anglo-American policy towards Soviet Russia the vital and silencing fact that at a difficult moment, when he might have withdrawn his country from the war at Russia's expense, Churchill pledged Britain to continue fighting as a full ally of the newest victim of Nazi duplicity. There would have been some semblance of poetic justice to such a withdrawal-was it not Stalin who set the war in motion by signing a friendship pact with Hitler in 1939? But the British Prime Minister never even considered such action.

A few details are still unclear-only British Intelligence and several top-flight officials, know them; a few facts must still be kept dark for reasons of policy. But the essential story can be safely, and usefully, told. It makes one of the most fascinating tales of superintrigue in the annals of international relations. It adds up to a supreme British coup that must have shattered the pride of the Nazis in their diplomacy and their Secret Service. In that domain, it is fair to say, the Hess incident is a defeat equivalent to Stalingrad in the military domain.

Rudolf Hess did not "escape" from Germany. He came as a winged messenger of peace, and no Parsifal in shining armor was ever more rigorously and loyally consecrated to his mission. He came not only with Adolf Hitler's blessing, but upon Hitler's explicit orders. Far from being a surprise, the arrival of Hess was expected by a limited number of Britishers, the outlines of his mission were known in advance, and the Nazi leader actually had an RAF escort in the final stage of his air journey.

On the basis of reliable information since obtained from German sources and from indications given by Hess himself, it is possible to reconstruct the situation in Berlin that led to the mad Hess undertaking.

By the beginning of 1941 Hitler, in disregard of the advice of some of his generals, had decided that he could no longer put off his "holy war" against Russia. The attempt to knock out the Western democracies before turning to the East had failed. The alternative was an understanding with Great Britain which would leave Germany free to concentrate everything against Russia-a return, in some measure, to the basis of co-operation set up in Munich. Whatever Chamberlain and Daladier may have thought, the Germans had interpreted the Munich deal as a carte blanche for Nazi domination of Eastern Europe. The Allied guarantees to Poland and Rumania thereafter and their declaration of war, were indignantly denounced in Berlin as a democratic double-cross.

Hitler put out a tentative feeler in January 1941 in the form of an inquiry regarding the British attitude towards possible direct negotiations. It was not directed to the British Government but to a group of influential Britishers, among them the Duke of Hamilton, who belonged to the since discredited Anglo-German Fellowship Association. An internationally known diplomat served as courier. In the course of time a reply arrived in Berlin expressing limited interest and asking for more information. Tediously, cautiously, without either side quite revealing its hand, a plan was developed. When the German proposal of negotiations on neutral soil was rejected, Berlin countered with an offer to send a delegate to England. After all, had not Chamberlain flown to Germany?

A delegate was selected-Ernst Wilhelm Bohle, Gauleiter of all Germans abroad. Handsome, South African-born, Cambridge educated Willi Bohle was actually a British subject, though his passport was considerably out of date, and he seemed ideally suited for the mission. Several important foreign journalists in Berlin were let in on the secret that Bohle was being groomed for a very big and mysterious job abroad, and the story was planted in Turkish and South American papers to test British reaction. When weeks passed and the British press did not pick up the story, thus indicating an indifference to Bohle, Berlin became worried.

It was then that the Führer came through with one of his "geniale" ideas. Bohle was not the right man, he said. He did not have the national stature to impress the British. A really big Nazi would have to go, one whose name was inseparably linked with Hitler himself and whose presence could not possibly fail to command attention. He must be one, said Hitler, who would represent the "goodness" of the German race, one whose sincerity was unquestionable. What is more, he must be able to speak officially for the German Government and to give binding commitments on the behalf of the Führer. Providence, Hitler pointed out, had given Germany just the man-Walter Richard Rudolf Hess, Nazi Number Three, who in addition to fulfilling the other qualifications had grown up in the English quarter of Alexandria, spoke fluent English and "understood the British mind."

Typokitty
06-29-2010, 04:45 PM
After Hitler transmitted his supreme and final offer-to send his own Deputy and closest friend directly to England-there was a long delay in replying. Possibly the imperturbable British required some time to recover from their astonishment. But finally Adolf's intuition was justified -- an acceptance of the proposal came through, details were arranged, and on May 10 Hess flew into the twilight.

Four months of intricate negotiations had preceded the flight. The Germans had pushed their proposal in the name of peace and Nordic friendship. Their British "friends" were co-operative without being too eager or too optimistic -- there was no use overlooking the difficulties. As was only natural, progress was made slowly; there were ups and downs in the fortunes of the enterprise.
II

The one thing the Germans did not know was that they were negotiating with agents of the British Secret Service using the names -- and the handwriting - of the Duke of Hamilton and other gentry of the Anglo-German Fellowship Association! The fact is that the initial communication, in January, brought personally by an eminent diplomat, never reached its destination, having been intercepted by the Secret Service. From then on the correspondence was handled entirely by astute British agents. Replies designed to whet the German appetite, replies encouraging the supposition that Britain was seeking a way out of its military difficulties, were sent to Berlin. The hook was carefully baited that caught the third largest fish in the Nazi lake.

It was perhaps his perverted love of Wagnerian contrast that led Hitler to choose the night of his Deputy's fateful flight for unloading five hundred tons of noisy death on London.

That night the subterranean plotting room of the RAF Fighter Command was static with !activity. The heaviest Nazi bomber force ever sent to Britain was pounding the capital, and new waves of planes were crossing the coast every fifteen minutes. When a report from an outlying radiolocation station on the Scottish coast announced the approach of an unidentified plane, the receiving operator at Fighter Command checked it off as "one of ours" and promptly forgot it. On the tail of the first report came a second: the plane had failed to identify itself properly and its speed indicated that it was a fighter. Methodically, as one immune to surprises, the operator sent his flash to the plotting room and a hostile plane was pinpointed far up on the eastern coast of Scotland with an arrow to indicate that it was moving west.

By now inland stations were also picking up the mystery plane, obviously a fighter from its speed, although Scotland was far beyond the normal cruising range of any fighter. Consulted, the commanding officer at Fighter Command reacted in a manner that Fighter Command personnel still discuss with varying degrees of puzzlement. "For God's sake," he is reported to have shouted, "Tell them not to shoot him down!" In a matter of seconds a fighter station in Scotland received a flash and two Hurricanes took off to trail the mystery plane with orders to force it down but under no conditions to shoot at it. While the small red arrows on the plotting table crept across Scotland, high officers at Fighter Command watched with absorbed interest. Near the tiny village of Paisley, almost on the west coast, they stopped. "Made it," the commanding officer is reported to have grunted. "Thank God, he's down!"

In Lanarkshire, Scotland, David McLean, a farmer, watched a figure parachute into his field, and by the time the man had disentangled himself from the shrouds of his parachute, Farmer McLean was standing over him with a pitchfork. "Are ye a Nazi enemy, or are ye one o' ours?" he asked. "Not Nazi enemy; British friend," the man replied with some difficulty because he had wrenched his ankle and was in extreme pain. Helped into the farmer's kitchen, he announced that his name was Alfred Horn and that he had come to see the Duke of Hamilton, laird of the great Dungavel estate ten miles away. The man talked freely, and to local Home Guardsmen Jack Paterson and Robert Gibson, who had arrived in the meantime, he admitted that he had come from Germany and was hunting the private aerodrome on Hamilton's estate when his fuel gave out and he had to bail out. "My name is Alfred Horn," he repeated frequently as though seeking recognition. "Please tell the Duke of Hamilton I have arrived."

With their instinctive distrust of aristocracy, the canny Scots became suspicious of the whole situation, and the parachutist was bundled off to the local Home Guard headquarters, where an excited, argumentative crowd soon gathered. Meanwhile, a kind of official reception committee composed of Military Intelligence officers and Secret Service agents was waiting at the private aerodrome on the Hamilton estate. The forced landing ten miles from the prearranged rendezvous was the only hitch in the plan. It was the hitch, presumably, which broke to the whole world sensational news which otherwise might have been kept on ice for a while if not for the duration.

When the "reception committee" heard of the accident and finally found their visitor, he was being guarded by over a dozen defiant Home Guardsmen who were determined not to relinquish him. It took lengthy assurances that the man would remain safe in their custody, plus the arrival of Army reinforcements under instructions to co-operate with the "committee," to persuade the Guardsmen to give up their prisoner.

Still declaring that his name was Alfred Horn, Hess was placed in a military motorcar and driven to Maryhill Barracks near Glasgow. There he changed his story. "I have come to save humanity," he said. "I am Rudolf Hess." And he indicated that his visit was being expected by influential Englishmen -- a statement that was truer than he as yet suspected. His identity checked, Hess was taken to a military hospital to have his ankle treated, and with a Scots Guardsman on duty outside his door, spent his first night in the British Isles.

In the village of Paisley and many other parts of the Highlands, Scotsmen divided into factions-Scots nationalists and British loyalists, royalists and socialists-and throughout that night and for several days broke heads and knuckles over the issue of the German who came to Scotland. The loyalists and socialists suspected that either the Scots nationalists or royalists had been guilty of some treasonable skullduggery.

Hess passed a good night, and when his nurse brought breakfast on a tray the next morning at 8 a.m. he reminded her that on the continent one breakfasted later. She left the tray and departed, while he went back to sleep. When she returned at nine for the tray, the breakfast had not been touched, so she removed it, with the result that Hess spent his first morning in Britain without breakfast. Thereafter he breakfasted at eight.

Hitler's friend and deputy had come prepared for an indirect approach to the British Government through the Anglo-German Fellowship Association, to which a surprising number of prominent Britons adhered before the war. The actual approach, as planned by Winston Churchill, was exceedingly direct. Ivone Kirkpatrick, an astute super-spy in World War I and Councillor at the Berlin Embassy during the intervening years, flew to Scotland to receive the Hess plan for direct transmission to the British Government. Even Hitler could have asked no greater co-operation. Despite the absence of the Duke of Hamilton, Hess at this stage was still convinced that he was dealing with the Fellowship intermediaries.

It was to Kirkpatrick that the Nazi first poured out the details of Hitler's armistice and peace proposals. He was enthusiastic and voluble -- the stenographic report filled many notebooks. And he was most optimistic, since he was fully convinced that Britain was licked, knew it, and must therefore welcome the Führer's generous offer of amity. His tone throughout was that of a munificent enemy offering a reprieve to a foe whose doom was otherwise sealed.
III

The terms of Hitler's peace proposal have been discussed up and down England not only in well-informed political circles but in pubs, bomb shelters and Pall Mall clubs. It was too elaborate a secret to be kept. Cabinet members presumably told their friends in Parliament and the MP's told their club colleagues and the news percolated down. The filter of time, plus such cross-checking as is possible on a subject that is officially taboo, enables the writer to give the general outline, withholding details.

Hitler offered total cessation of the war in the West. Germany would evacuate all of France except Alsace and Lorraine, which would remain German. It would evacuate Holland and Belgium, retaining Luxembourg. It would evacuate Norway and Denmark. In short, Hitler offered to withdraw from Western Europe, except for the two French provinces and Luxembourg [Luxembourg was never a French province, but an independent state of ethnically German origin], in return for which Great Britain would agree to assume an attitude of benevolent neutrality towards Germany as it unfolded its plans in Eastern Europe. In addition, the Führer was ready to withdraw from Yugoslavia and Greece. German troops would be evacuated from the Mediterranean generally and Hitler would use his good offices to arrange a settlement of the Mediterranean conflict between Britain and Italy. No belligerent or neutral country would be entitled to demand reparations from any other country, he specified.

The proposal contained many other points, including plans for plebiscites and population exchanges where these might be necessitated by shifts in population that has resulted from the military action in Western Europe and the Balkans. But the versions circulating in authoritative circles all agree on the basic points outlined above.

Typokitty
06-29-2010, 04:49 PM
In a prepared preamble, Hess explained the importance of Hitler's Eastern mission "to save humanity," and indicated how perfectly the whole arrangement would work out for Britain and France, not only from the ideological and security angles but also commercially. Germany, he pointed out, would take the full production of the Allied war industries until they could be converted to a peacetime basis, thus preventing economic depression. As Hess and his Führer saw it, England and France would become, in effect, the arsenals of free capitalism against Asiatic communism. The actual slaying of the Bolshevik dragon Hitler reserved for Germany alone, so that by this act he could convince a doubting world of his benevolent intentions. Hess gave no information on the military plans for Eastern Europe and would not be drawn out on that point, since it was a problem for Germany alone.

For two days Hitler's emissary unfolded his proposals and Churchill's amanuensis made notes. Hess was certain his plan would be accepted; it is characteristic of German thinking that it never foresees the possibility of another point of view. He emphasized that his Leader would not quibble over details -- Britain could practically write its own peace terms. Hitler was only eager, as a humanitarian, to stop the "senseless war" with a brother nation and thus incidentally guarantee supplies and safeguard his rear while fighting in the East.

With the prepared plan and the emissary's annotations in his notebooks, Kirkpatrick went to 10 Downing Street. The plan was communicated to Washington for an opinion, and the President, of course, confirmed the Prime Minister's decision. The answer would be a flat "No," but the two statesmen are reported to have agreed that open discussion of such a sensational offer would be undesirable at that time. They decided that the insanity explanation fed to the German people would also suffice for the rest of the world. Unlike the Germans and some Americans, no single Britisher believed a word of that story. Both London and Washington made repeated efforts to warn Russia of the coming German blows. The Russian leaders would not believe it-or pretended not to believe it-and certain Soviet diplomats insisted that the warnings were democratic "tricks". until the actual invasion took place.

Hess was not told of Churchill's decision and was permitted to assume that his proposals were under ardent discussion. At the hospital he rested easily and talked freely with his doctor, nurses and guards. He was tolerant and friendly until his doctor one morning made a typical British comment on Adolf Hitler, Hess thereupon staged a scene and remained surly and sulking for a week. When he was able to walk, he was flown to London, where he talked to Lord Beaverbrook, Alfred Duff Cooper and other government leaders. But Churchill refused his repeated requests for a meeting.

Only after he had talked himself out and could provide no further useful information, was Hess informed that his plan had been entirely rejected and that Britain was already Russia's any. By that time he was aware, too, that the negotiations which preceded his flight had short-circuited the Fellowship crowd -- neither Hamiliton nor any of the others had known anything about the Hess visit until all of England knew it. Hess's shock and dismay resulted in a minor nervous breakdown, so that for a while the Nazi lie about his insanity came near being true. The news of the sinking of the Bismarck shook Hess so that he wept for an entire day.

Hess demanded that he be sent back to Germany, because, having come as an emissary, he was entitled to safe return. The British Government reasoned differently -- after all, he came as an emissary to private individuals, not to the Government directly -- and he became a special prisoner of war. He spends his existence in the manor house of a large English estate, with considerable freedom of movement on the well guarded grounds. His appetite is reported to be good. He spends most of his time reading German classics and perfecting his English. A book-dealer in London recently wrote to several of his customers who had purchased German books from him, inquiring whether they would care to resell them to another client: the client's name was given as Walter R. R. Hess.

This was not the first time England reduced a German stronghold by audacious Secret Service work. It was reported unofficially in Berlin that the Graf Spee was scuttled on orders sent over Admiral Raeder's signature by the cloak-and-dagger experts in the British Secret Service. Whether there is any truth to that or not, there is no doubt that when the whole story can be told the achievements of that Secret Service will astound the world. And the Hess episode is certain to stand out with a glory all its own among them.
found @ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p291_Anon.html

Uyraell
06-30-2010, 04:30 AM
Moderators, a respectful suggestion, since this topic has innate bearing upon the other:

Could this thread be Merged with the "Should Hess have been all his Life in Prison" Poll/thread?

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

alephh
06-30-2010, 05:53 AM
The biggest question is whether Hitler knew in advance about the flight.

If Hitler knew, why did he freak out - being totally surprised - after hearing about the Hess flight?

Hitler ordered some pretty random arrests because the whole thing took him by surprise.
Emergency meetings took place to determine what to publicly state about the case.
Hitler ordered Hess to be shot if he returned to Germany.

Doesn't sound like the actions of a man who knew what would be happening.

Typokitty
06-30-2010, 06:05 PM
I think, and of course it is only an opinion, but I think he did know. I think that IG Farbin / Deutche Bank was pulling some very heavy strings and they were pressing Hitler for more. The flight was supposed to be secretive to begin with, as the proposal would not have been announced until after it was signed. Had it been known at that point Hitler were to be brokering peace - IG Farbin /Deutche Bank would have stood to lose < billions/ trillions ? > They would have pulled out of Germany and taken their jobs and financial gains with them and Germany would have been let in a worse crisis.Had England accepted the peace agreement , the war would have been pretty much over and millions would have lived .

boyne_water
07-01-2010, 01:03 AM
Millions may have lived,perhaps.Unless of course you happened to be one of the people Hitler and his genocidal cronies deemed unworthy of life.

Typokitty
07-01-2010, 03:20 AM
Millions may have lived,perhaps.Unless of course you happened to be one of the people Hitler and his genocidal cronies deemed unworthy of life.

Not true - at the time of Hess' flight 90% of the deaths were considered "casualtys" of war.< I despise that term > Yes folks were in camps already ,but not being put to death. Until 1942- 1943 they were simply forced labour, building the Auto Bon and a rubber factory in Auschwitz also several more factorys, roads, and munitions. Hess was behind bars 6 months or more BEFORE they started in on the exterminations.

Rising Sun*
07-01-2010, 08:58 AM
Moderators, a respectful suggestion, since this topic has innate bearing upon the other:

Could this thread be Merged with the "Should Hess have been all his Life in Prison" Poll/thread?

It could be, but it's pursuing a different aspect to do with the reasons for Hess's flight to Scotland during WWII rather than his post-war incarceration.

The topics are at opposite ends of the spectrum of Hess's WWII life so they're better kept separate, even if there is a degree of overlap.

boyne_water
07-01-2010, 12:03 PM
Not true - at the time of Hess' flight 90% of the deaths were considered "casualtys" of war.< I despise that term > Yes folks were in camps already ,but not being put to death. Until 1942- 1943 they were simply forced labour, building the Auto Bon and a rubber factory in Auschwitz also several more factorys, roads, and munitions. Hess was behind bars 6 months or more BEFORE they started in on the exterminations.

Im interested to hear what you think would have happened to the people who were not considered to be full citizens of the country they were born in if Hess had managed to broker a peace deal in the west.Would they have remained slaves,prisoners or would the final solution still occur?

I certainly don,t know.But i suspect the latter and i think thats a pretty good reason not to make peace with the nazis.

kurt
07-01-2010, 01:08 PM
Im interested to hear what you think would have happened to the people who were not considered to be full citizens of the country they were born in if Hess had managed to broker a peace deal in the west.Would they have remained slaves,prisoners or would the final solution still occur?

I certainly don,t know.But i suspect the latter and i think thats a pretty good reason not to make peace with the nazis.

Even if your suspicion had been proved right, millions of europeans had been saved their lives and destruction of a whole continent avoided .
What remains unexplained is that the allies didn't have any scruples in helping Stalin, who invaded Poland two weeks after the Wermacht, killed far more people than Germany, in the Gulags and during his infamous purges. Only in the period 1932-1933 he caused a famine in Ukraine that caused 7'000.000 of victims, http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm
and eventually the countries of Eastern Europe lost their freedom under the comunists boot .
The only explanation is that maybe this war was not against Nazy Germany, but against Germany, regardless of political considerations.

Typokitty
07-01-2010, 01:12 PM
Im interested to hear what you think would have happened to the people who were not considered to be full citizens of the country they were born in if Hess had managed to broker a peace deal in the west.Would they have remained slaves,prisoners or would the final solution still occur?

I certainly don,t know.But i suspect the latter and i think thats a pretty good reason not to make peace with the nazis.

Honestly , in my opinion , I think they would have remained slaves. The Jews were considered a weaker race. Germany had loads of stuff to be built , a lot of rebuilding , and many areas that needed grunt labor. The Jews would have fulfilled that purpose. With IG Farbin / Deutche Bank funding it all - the sky was the limit. Remember Germany was in an economic crunch, they could not really afford to lose free labor.
Also had FDR and Stalin not been doing heinous things of their own, we might not ever had heard of Hitler , and millions of people would have lived. Hitler fought back against them meddling in Germany's business . Making peace with the Nazis would have been the smart thing to do , and the best all around for everyone. IMO of course.

kurt
07-01-2010, 01:19 PM
Honestly , in my opinion , I think they would have remained slaves. The Jews were considered a weaker race. Germany had loads of stuff to be built , a lot of rebuilding , and many areas that needed grunt labor. The Jews would have fulfilled that purpose. With IG Farbin / Deutche Bank funding it all - the sky was the limit. Remember Germany was in an economic crunch, they could not really afford to lose free labor.
Maybe they would have been sent to Madagascar , according to previous plans and offers, instead of
snatching the Palestinian people's land.

Typokitty
07-01-2010, 01:51 PM
Maybe they would have been sent to Madagascar , according to previous plans and offers, instead of
snatching the Palestinian people's land.

Perhaps. Sadly we will never that. I think that in the long run , the Jews would have been happy there, or anywhere they would finally have their own place in this world.

boyne_water
07-01-2010, 04:32 PM
Maybe the right thing to do,would be to let their own citizens(of what ever ethnic background)live in peace,with the full set of rights for everyone.Then perhaps we woudn,t have the problems in the middle east.Just a thought.I don,t claim to be an expert on Jewish imigration to Palestine between the wars but i imagine Hitler,Hess,Goering and company had an effect.

Typokitty
07-01-2010, 05:36 PM
Maybe the right thing to do,would be to let their own citizens(of what ever ethnic background)live in peace,with the full set of rights for everyone.Then perhaps we woudn,t have the problems in the middle east.Just a thought.I don,t claim to be an expert on Jewish imigration to Palestine between the wars but i imagine Hitler,Hess,Goering and company had an effect.

*SIGH* sounds good ,looks awesome on paper and is a beautiful ideal, however human nature will not ever let that be so. There will always be a hierarchy due to it being the very nature of man. :( The U.S. has a problem in the Middle East because we have strayed far from our constitution. 1 ) It is not in our constitution to play world police 2 ) We are to have alliances with NO ONE. Just our membership to the U.N. breaks that!
I found a pf I am reading right now -Rudolf Hess by David Irving. I'm just now on chap. 2 but its fascinating and wanted to drop the link if anyone is interested :) http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hess/index.html

flamethrowerguy
07-01-2010, 06:03 PM
David Irving, right? Hell of a source...
Was he released in the meantime or is he still doing time in an Austrian prison for Holocaust denial?

Typokitty
07-01-2010, 06:59 PM
Yes it is David Irving. I do not know his "record" but what I've read so far is good. I'm looking over his source index right now. Interesting sources :D As for the denial thing, I refuse to judge someone based on that.He must have found good reason to believe . However I am glade you told me and will keep that in mind as to his opinions. I am quite sure it will color any real info that he gives.We have all taken sides in this war and will continue to do so for as long as it is being studied. The problem is history has left a huge gaping hole where truth and solid information ought to be. U.S. and Russian Gov.s made sure the truth can only be speculated upon and not substantiated by destroying documents and evidence everywhere they found them. This is not the actions of innocent men! This is the actions of two boys < Joseph and Franklin > caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie jar.

boyne_water
07-01-2010, 11:40 PM
*SIGH* sounds good ,looks awesome on paper and is a beautiful ideal, however human nature will not ever let that be so. There will always be a hierarchy due to it being the very nature of man. :( The U.S. has a problem in the Middle East because we have strayed far from our constitution. 1 ) It is not in our constitution to play world police 2 ) We are to have alliances with NO ONE. Just our membership to the U.N. breaks that!
I found a pf I am reading right now -Rudolf Hess by David Irving. I'm just now on chap. 2 but its fascinating and wanted to drop the link if anyone is interested :) http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hess/index.html

It dosn,t just look good on paper its pretty much the way the United Kingdom works today.

If we had made peace with Hitler how long do you think it would have lasted?My own opinion.for what its worth,is that the first time we refused one of his reasonable requests we would have been attacked again.
I could be wrong,but he does have form for that kind of thing.

Typokitty
07-02-2010, 12:25 AM
It dosn,t just look good on paper its pretty much the way the United Kingdom works today.

Is this the same UK that has gained almost quarter Muslim and the other 3 quarters ( or close to ) are very angry because of the huge influx ? I think the breech of Barbarossa was situational. I think there is so much more than meets the eye. Historically speaking ,NO ONE in their right mind would try to march thought Russia in the dead of winter. Napoleon tried it and lost 90% of his troops and equipment .So no, I do not think he would of breached a peace agreement with England. I think someone else had a hand in that one.

boyne_water
07-02-2010, 01:02 AM
Is this the same UK that has gained almost quarter Muslim and the other 3 quarters ( or close to ) are very angry because of the huge influx ? I think the breech of Barbarossa was situational. I think there is so much more than meets the eye. Historically speaking ,NO ONE in their right mind would try to march thought Russia in the dead of winter. Napoleon tried it and lost 90% of his troops and equipment .So no, I do not think he would of breached a peace agreement with England. I think someone else had a hand in that one.

No this is the United Kingdom that has a 3 percent Muslim population.And this section of our population has the same rights as any other.

What would have been the status of Jews in the uk in 1940 if we had made peace with Hitler?I know what happened to the Hungarian Jews and they were Hitlers allies.

Rising Sun*
07-02-2010, 07:42 AM
David Irving, right? Hell of a source...
Was he released in the meantime or is he still doing time in an Austrian prison for Holocaust denial?

In fairness to Irving, he was quite a good historian in his earlier career but after he got onto the Holocaust denier road he became a rather poor historian, or so those of us who don't accept Holocaust denial think. His supporters take the opposite view.

I don't think it's likely, but perhaps in time his research and views might turn out to have some substance. Although at best, or worst, I can't see them doing much more than playing with numbers to no important purpose as for the purposes of crimes against humanity as a general moral issue it is immaterial whether 4.5 million or 6 million or 8 million or whatever number of Jews, and Russians, died under the Nazis.

Rising Sun*
07-02-2010, 07:54 AM
Even if your suspicion had been proved right, millions of europeans had been saved their lives and destruction of a whole continent avoided .
What remains unexplained is that the allies didn't have any scruples in helping Stalin, who invaded Poland two weeks after the Wermacht, killed far more people than Germany, in the Gulags and during his infamous purges. Only in the period 1932-1933 he caused a famine in Ukraine that caused 7'000.000 of victims, http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm
and eventually the countries of Eastern Europe lost their freedom under the comunists boot .
The only explanation is that maybe this war was not against Nazy Germany, but against Germany, regardless of political considerations.

There is the slight obstacle to your argument that Germany actually started the war in Europe and also declared war against the US after Pearl Harbor despite there being no US armed threat to Germany at the time.

Rising Sun*
07-02-2010, 08:04 AM
Honestly , in my opinion , I think they would have remained slaves. The Jews were considered a weaker race.
Jews are adherents to a religion. They are not a race. There is nothing to suggest that adherents to any given religion are necessarily weaker than anyone else.


Germany had loads of stuff to be built , a lot of rebuilding , and many areas that needed grunt labor. The Jews would have fulfilled that purpose. With IG Farbin / Deutche Bank funding it all - the sky was the limit. Remember Germany was in an economic crunch, they could not really afford to lose free labor.

Care to expand on this?

With specific reference to how the 'free labour' was critical to Germany's Depression era economy when there was virtually no 'free labour' and comparing this to the wartime resources diverted to capturing, transporting, accommodating, supervising, guarding and, somewhat pointlessly, working the 'free labour' to death as well as killing it.


Also had FDR and Stalin not been doing heinous things of their own, we might not ever had heard of Hitler , and millions of people would have lived. Hitler fought back against them meddling in Germany's business .

Do expand on this.

Exactly what heinous things did FDR do without which we might not have heard of Hitler? Fail to stop the Munich Putsch in 1923, nearly a decade before FDR became President?

I can't wait for this elucidation. :confused:

Rising Sun*
07-02-2010, 08:11 AM
( The U.S. has a problem in the Middle East because we have strayed far from our constitution. 1 ) It is not in our constitution to play world police 2 ) We are to have alliances with NO ONE. Just our membership to the U.N. breaks that!


Your Constitution didn't say anything about propping up the Shah and SAVAAK, but that didn't stop America exploiting and generally ****ing up and ****ing over Iran for its own purposes and then moaning when the Iranians revolted and asserted their independence (not unlike 1776, but if there is one thing that American governments of recent memory can't stand it's another country exercising the same right to independence that America bases its own existence upon) http://whohijackedourcountry.blogspot.com/2006/01/why-does-iran-hate-us.html

Rising Sun*
07-02-2010, 08:18 AM
YThe problem is history has left a huge gaping hole where truth and solid information ought to be. U.S. and Russian Gov.s made sure the truth can only be speculated upon and not substantiated by destroying documents and evidence everywhere they found them. This is not the actions of innocent men! This is the actions of two boys < Joseph and Franklin > caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie jar.

Care to share what you know about the documents America destroyed?

Then again, if you know what documents it destroyed there was no knowledge destroyed.

And if you don't know what documents were destroyed, you don't know what documents were destroyed and the knowledge they contained.

All a bit Rumsfeld, isn't it? 'There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.' etc

Rising Sun*
07-02-2010, 08:25 AM
Historically speaking ,NO ONE in their right mind would try to march thought Russia in the dead of winter. Napoleon tried it and lost 90% of his troops and equipment .

Alas for your increasingly ill-informed; or idiotic; or quite possibly merely trolling, position, Napoleon didn't try to march through Russia in the dead of winter. He launched his attack in summer, as did Germany with Barbarossa.


I think someone else had a hand in that one.

I think you have your hand on something that is making you look like a wanker at best and a troll at worst.

You've had an exceptionally good run in this thread with your nonsense.

Now that a mod has had a look at it, you would be well advised to stop it.

kurt
07-02-2010, 12:14 PM
There is the slight obstacle to your argument that Germany actually started the war in Europe and also declared war against the US after Pearl Harbor despite there being no US armed threat to Germany at the time.

Wrong, France and England declare war to Germany on September 3 1939, not the opposite.
Furthermore Roosevelt's Lend and Lease Law was a virtual war declaration on Germany, Russia only survived the struggle with that help, as it is recognized for the russian nowadays,

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html

Typokitty
07-02-2010, 02:12 PM
I think you have your hand on something that is making you look like a wanker at best and a troll at worst.

You've had an exceptionally good run in this thread with your nonsense.

Now that a mod has had a look at it, you would be well advised to stop it.

I wasn't trolling - I was enjoying a discussion. I have not been flaming ,rude, or obnoxious and I research others points as well as mine. So you wish me to stop having a calm,civilized discussion ?

Typokitty
07-02-2010, 02:21 PM
Wrong, France and England declare war to Germany on September 3 1939, not the opposite.
Furthermore Roosevelt's Lend and Lease Law was a virtual war declaration on Germany, Russia only survived the struggle with that help, as it is recognized for the russian nowadays,

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html
That was a large part of what I was alluding to .

Rising Sun*
07-03-2010, 07:14 AM
Wrong, France and England declare war to Germany on September 3 1939, not the opposite.

Might this have had something to do with Germany marching into Poland?

Or did Britain and France do that as well?

Not to mention Britain and France staging the Gleiwitz incident, cunningly disguised as Poles cunningly concealing their true Nazi identities.

Get a grip on reality, for Christ's sake!


Furthermore Roosevelt's Lend and Lease Law was a virtual war declaration on Germany, Russia only survived the struggle with that help, as it is recognized for the russian nowadays

So how do you deal with Ford and GM supplying materiel to Germany before Germany declared war on the US?

Was this a declaration of war by the US on Britain?

Selective and distorted 'facts' prove nothing, apart from the bias or lack of understanding of the person putting them forward.

Rising Sun*
07-03-2010, 07:17 AM
I wasn't trolling - I was enjoying a discussion. I have not been flaming ,rude, or obnoxious and I research others points as well as mine.

Then answer my posts above with your research.


So you wish me to stop having a calm,civilized discussion ?

No, I wish you to stop spouting nonsense which borders on trolling, or just plain stupidity.

Nickdfresh
07-03-2010, 07:49 AM
Wrong,

What do you mean? How is he wrong? We're borderline trolling here...


France and England declare war to Germany on September 3 1939, not the opposite.

As they were obligated to do by treaty as German launched a war of aggression against the Poles after already illegally subjugating several autonomous states and getting away with it...


Furthermore Roosevelt's Lend and Lease Law was a virtual war declaration on Germany, Russia only survived the struggle with that help, as it is recognized for the russian nowadays,

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html

Why? If Germany can profit from war, why couldn't the United States cashier on its armaments industry? And Lend Lease to the Soviet Union only reached significant quantities to make a difference well after America's entry into the war. Your "Germany as victim" stance here is getting nauseating...

Rising Sun*
07-03-2010, 08:09 AM
As they were obligated to do by treaty as German launched a war of aggression against the Poles after already illegally subjugating several autonomous states and getting away with it...

Why? If Germany can profit from war, why couldn't the United States cashier on its armaments industry? And Lend Lease to the Soviet Union only reached significant quantities to make a difference well after America's entry into the war.

Oh, yes!

Unilaterally introduce facts and logic!

What sort of argument is that? ;)

Typokitty
07-03-2010, 03:36 PM
BELIEFS :
“Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race and we are a race.” - The leader of American Jewry in the 1930s, Rabbi Stephen F. Wise N.Y. Herald-Tribune, June 13, 1938.

…The Jews are divided into two categories, those who admit they belong to a race distinguished by a history thousands of years old, and those who don’t. The latter are open to the charge of dishonesty. - Nahum Goldman, former president of the World Zionist Organization

“If Israel had not come into existence after World War II then I am certain the Jewish race wouldn’t have survived…I stand before you and say you must strengthen your commitment to Israel.” - former Israeli Prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu

An editorial entitled “Some Other Race” in the New York weekly Forward (A very prestigious Jewish publication) urges Jews to list themselves on the U.S. Government census form as a race. It goes on to suggest:

“… On question eight [of the form, which asks about race], you might consider doing what more than one member of our redaktzia [editorial staff] has done: checking the box ’some other race’ and writing in the word ‘Jew’.”

"You cannot be English Jews. We are a race, and only as a race can we perpetuate. Our mentality is of a Hebraic character, and differs from that of an Englishman. Enough subterfuges! Let us assert openly that we are International Jews." - Gerald Soman, Chairman of the World Jewry Fellowship, in its official manifesto, January 1, 1935.

You can find this here :
http://www.libreopinion.com/members/standarteslc/jewishquestion07.html
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-Quotations/JewsOnJews.htm
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2p63_Weber.html

Scientific Key Findings :

Key findings:
# The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.
# Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European).
# Dutch Jews from the Netherlands also descend from northwestern Europeans.
# Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.
# Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites.
# Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites.
# Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites.
# Libyan Jews are mainly Israelites who may have mixed somewhat with Berbers.
# Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.
# Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.
# Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.

Found here : http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

Clearly science and belifes have very litle to do with each other, however for me personally , it matters not what science says if someone ,or group of people adhere to specific belief. For them it is their reality and with respect to them, it can not be discounted by science.Therfor I shall address them in the manor they wish to be addressed.This is not a matter of being "wanker" or a "flamer". Simply giving respect to their own beliefs.
However you were correct about Hitler/Napolian / Russia. I got their winter champaigns mixed up with the start dates of the respective wars. I still hold that attacking Russia in winter ,on foot, pure stupidity. He should have taken out Moscow in the early summer.as he was advised. By the fall he wold have had all ,or 90%, of Russia. The Russians looked upon Hitler as libertor and welcomed him. ( Yes Stalin was THAT bad )

Bugay NF L. Beria - I. Stalin: Under your orders... p.146.
"In units of the German army, deployed in the Crimea, there were roughly more than 20 thousands of Crimean Tatars”
“Azat Crum” (paper of Crimean Tatars 1942-1944)
20.03.1942 : “Together with the glorious German brothers that liberate Eastern world, we, the Crimean Tatars, declare the whole world that we have not forgotten the solemn promises of Churchill in Washington, his desire to revive Zhydivsky (Jewish) power in Palestine, his desire to destroy Turkey, to seize Istanbul and the Dardanelles , to raise a rebellion in Turkey and Afghanistan, etc. etc. East is waiting for its liberation not from Democratic liars and swindlers, but from the National Socialist Party and Adolf Hitler the Liberator. We gave an oath to make sacrifices for such a sacred task.”
10.04.1942: “With the arrival into the Crimea the valiant sons of the Great Germany with your blessings and in memory of long years of friendship we, Muslims, stood shoulder to shoulder with the German people, we took up arms and started our fight for your great universal ideas - the destruction of the red-Zhydivsky (Jewish) Bolshevik plague to the end and the last drop of blood…”
But its true that many were fighting against Hitler, 6 were given the Hero of the Soviet Union.

There is a very interesting PDF here if you care to read :
http://tinyurl.com/iccrimea

I will continue to answer your demand for facts of my opinions after I reread your requests.

Typokitty
07-03-2010, 05:04 PM
With specific reference to how the 'free labour' was critical to Germany's Depression era economy when there was virtually no 'free labour' and comparing this to the wartime resources diverted to capturing, transporting, accommodating, supervising, guarding and, somewhat pointlessly, working the 'free labour' to death as well as killing it.


They were needed, it was true. Their physical strength was needed for work on the land, in the stone-quarries, on the roads, and in the factories. And as long as that strength accepted the compulsion laid upon it obediently and without complaint, so long it had by German favour the privilege of life. - by Alexander Janta
Excerpt from "I Lied to Live; A Year as a German Family Slave," New York, Roy Publishers,1944
http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/slave.html


As early as 1937, the Nazis increasingly exploited the forced labor of so-called "enemies of the state" for economic gain and to meet desperate labor shortages. - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005180

Ostarbeiter Slave Labor

Germany faced a crisis at the end of 1941 because after it had mobilized its massive armies, a shortage of workers developed in Germany to support the war industry. Hermann Goering at first thought "the best thing would be to kill all men in Ukraine over fifteen years of age" but then realized working them to death was more useful for the German Reich. He decided to bring in people from Ukraine, called Ostarbeiter (east workers), to work in German war industries. A recruiting campaign in Ukraine was carried out in January 1942 by Fritz Sauckel for workers to go to Germany. "On January 28th the first special train will leave for Germany with hot meals in Kiev, Zdolbunov and Peremyshl" offered an announcement. The first train was full on January 22. - Ostarbeiter Slave Labor
by Andrew Gregorovich
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-12.html
So that being said - YES Germany needed and used slave labor for their factories ,roads, and so on.

Typokitty
07-03-2010, 05:56 PM
Exactly what heinous things did FDR do without which we might not have heard of Hitler? Fail to stop the Munich Putsch in 1923, nearly a decade before FDR became President?

I can't wait for this elucidation. :confused:




Pearl Harbor: The Controversy Continues
by Sheldon Richman, December 1991

At 7:53 am. on Sunday, December 7, 1941, a Japanese force of 183 fighters, bombers, and torpedo planes struck the United States Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Some 4,500 Americans were killed or wounded. As news of the surprise attack spread, William F. Friedman, an Army cryptanalyst who had helped to break the Japanese diplomatic "Purple" code, said to his wife repeatedly, "But they knew, they knew, they knew."

Meanwhile, the British doubleagent Dusko Popov got an incomplete account of the attack while aboard a tramp steamer. He assumed the Americans had been ready for the Japanese attack — it was he who had given the FBI the Japanese plans for the air raid. Popov would recall, "I was sure the American fleet had scored a great victory over the Japanese. I was very, very proud that I had been able to give the warning to the Americans four months in advance. What a reception the Japanese must have had!"

http://www.fff.org/freedom/1291c.asp

OPERATION KEELHAUL: http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-interest-to-white-people/operation-keelhaul-a-combined-allied-atrocity_865.html

also HERE : http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0053.htm

There are many such instances for this sort to be found. And since now I feel like I am doing your research for you - your turn - rebuttals ?

Nickdfresh
07-03-2010, 06:07 PM
Pearl Harbor: The Controversy Continues
by Sheldon Richman, December 1991

At 7:53 am. on Sunday, December 7, 1941, a Japanese force of 183 fighters, bombers, and torpedo planes struck the United States Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Some 4,500 Americans were killed or wounded. As news of the surprise attack spread, William F. Friedman, an Army cryptanalyst who had helped to break the Japanese diplomatic "Purple" code, said to his wife repeatedly, "But they knew, they knew, they knew."

"They knew" what exactly?


Meanwhile, the British doubleagent Dusko Popov got an incomplete account of the attack while aboard a tramp steamer. He assumed the Americans had been ready for the Japanese attack — it was he who had given the FBI the Japanese plans for the air raid. Popov would recall, "I was sure the American fleet had scored a great victory over the Japanese. I was very, very proud that I had been able to give the warning to the Americans four months in advance. What a reception the Japanese must have had!"

Um, you mean Agent "Tricycle?" (We won't go into the origins of his codename here :) ).

According to Wiki, he merely informed the FBI that the Germans had some interest in the bases around Pearl, but no specifics were given as to when or how a Japanese attack would take place...


http://www.fff.org/freedom/1291c.asp

OPERATION KEELHAUL: http://us.altermedia.info/news-of-interest-to-white-people/operation-keelhaul-a-combined-allied-atrocity_865.html

also HERE : http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0053.htm

There are many such instances for this sort to be found. And since now I feel like I am doing your research for you - your turn - rebuttals ?

The rebuttal is that much of the "U.S. Gov't knew about Pearl Harbor" stuff is typical, selectively edited conspiracy crap made up by pseudo-historians with questionable scholarship. The Americans DID in fact know an attack was coming in late November to mid-December of 1941, but they never believed the Japanese would have the audacity to attack Pearl Harbor and assumed hostilities would begin on the outer rim of the United States and allied European territories in the Pacific...

Nickdfresh
07-03-2010, 06:10 PM
BELIEFS :
“Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race and we are a race.” - The leader of American Jewry in the 1930s, Rabbi Stephen F. Wise N.Y. Herald-Tribune, June 13, 1938.

…The Jews are divided into two categories, those who admit they belong to a race distinguished by a history thousands of years old, and those who don’t. The latter are open to the charge of dishonesty. - Nahum Goldman, former president of the World Zionist Organization

“If Israel had not come into existence after World War II then I am certain the Jewish race wouldn’t have survived…I stand before you and say you must strengthen your commitment to Israel.” - former Israeli Prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu

An editorial entitled “Some Other Race” in the New York weekly Forward (A very prestigious Jewish publication) urges Jews to list themselves on the U.S. Government census form as a race. It goes on to suggest:

“… On question eight [of the form, which asks about race], you might consider doing what more than one member of our redaktzia [editorial staff] has done: checking the box ’some other race’ and writing in the word ‘Jew’.”

"You cannot be English Jews. We are a race, and only as a race can we perpetuate. Our mentality is of a Hebraic character, and differs from that of an Englishman. Enough subterfuges! Let us assert openly that we are International Jews." - Gerald Soman, Chairman of the World Jewry Fellowship, in its official manifesto, January 1, 1935.

You can find this here :
http://www.libreopinion.com/members/standarteslc/jewishquestion07.html
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-Quotations/JewsOnJews.htm
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2p63_Weber.html

Scientific Key Findings :

Key findings:
# The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.
# Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European).
# Dutch Jews from the Netherlands also descend from northwestern Europeans.
# Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.
# Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites.
# Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites.
# Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites.
# Libyan Jews are mainly Israelites who may have mixed somewhat with Berbers.
# Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.
# Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.
# Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.

Found here : http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

Clearly science and belifes have very litle to do with each other, however for me personally , it matters not what science says if someone ,or group of people adhere to specific belief. For them it is their reality and with respect to them, it can not be discounted by science.Therfor I shall address them in the manor they wish to be addressed.This is not a matter of being "wanker" or a "flamer". Simply giving respect to their own beliefs.
However you were correct about Hitler/Napolian / Russia. I got their winter champaigns mixed up with the start dates of the respective wars. I still hold that attacking Russia in winter ,on foot, pure stupidity. He should have taken out Moscow in the early summer.as he was advised. By the fall he wold have had all ,or 90%, of Russia. The Russians looked upon Hitler as libertor and welcomed him. ( Yes Stalin was THAT bad )

Bugay NF L. Beria - I. Stalin: Under your orders... p.146.
"In units of the German army, deployed in the Crimea, there were roughly more than 20 thousands of Crimean Tatars”
“Azat Crum” (paper of Crimean Tatars 1942-1944)
20.03.1942 : “Together with the glorious German brothers that liberate Eastern world, we, the Crimean Tatars, declare the whole world that we have not forgotten the solemn promises of Churchill in Washington, his desire to revive Zhydivsky (Jewish) power in Palestine, his desire to destroy Turkey, to seize Istanbul and the Dardanelles , to raise a rebellion in Turkey and Afghanistan, etc. etc. East is waiting for its liberation not from Democratic liars and swindlers, but from the National Socialist Party and Adolf Hitler the Liberator. We gave an oath to make sacrifices for such a sacred task.”
10.04.1942: “With the arrival into the Crimea the valiant sons of the Great Germany with your blessings and in memory of long years of friendship we, Muslims, stood shoulder to shoulder with the German people, we took up arms and started our fight for your great universal ideas - the destruction of the red-Zhydivsky (Jewish) Bolshevik plague to the end and the last drop of blood…”
But its true that many were fighting against Hitler, 6 were given the Hero of the Soviet Union.

There is a very interesting PDF here if you care to read :
http://tinyurl.com/iccrimea

I will continue to answer your demand for facts of my opinions after I reread your requests.

These are called "opinions." Try not to confuse opines with facts and try not to think you're dazzling us with cut-and-pastes from Google-mania...

Typokitty
07-03-2010, 06:18 PM
These are called "opinions." Try not to confuse opines with facts and try not to think you're dazzling us with cut-and-pastes from Google-mania...

He asked for proof of my opinions and I was fulfilling his request. I am not the one whom is having issues about the differences thereof. As for "dazzling" I could care less as I am here to hear and discuss opinions and glean a few facts if they are about.

Nickdfresh
07-03-2010, 06:23 PM
He asked for proof of my opinions and I was fulfilling his request. I am not the one whom is having issues about the differences thereof. As for "dazzling" I could care less as I am here to hear and discuss opinions and glean a few facts if they are about.

Using questionable internet links isn't "proof" of anything, in fact it's borderline spamming. This thread has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor or nitwitted conspiracy theories, and I suggest you do care, because your "discussion" seems to be more about derailing things...

Typokitty
07-03-2010, 06:39 PM
Um, you mean Agent "Tricycle?" (We won't go into the origins of his codename here :) ).
LMAO I've never heard him referred to by that name :D

According to Wiki, he merely informed the FBI that the Germans had some interest in the bases around Pearl, but no specifics were given as to when or how a Japanese attack would take place...

Wiki is not a reliable source for info, so I rarely use it except maps and very basic info - then it is researched independently


The rebuttal is that much of the "U.S. Gov't knew about Pearl Harbor" stuff is typical, selectively edited conspiracy crap made up by pseudo-historians with questionable scholarship. The Americans DID in fact know an attack was coming in late November to mid-December of 1941, but they never believed the Japanese would have the audacity to attack Pearl Harbor and assumed hostilities would begin on the outer rim of the United States and allied European territories in the Pacific...

Even conspiracies have some truth to them. That is what I am looking for. The public has been lied to for so long .Why be complacent with the info that was spoon fed to you ? Why not research for yourself what the truth is ? It might be one nd the same - but it might not. Never know until you look for yourself :)

Typokitty
07-03-2010, 06:46 PM
Using questionable internet links isn't "proof" of anything, in fact it's borderline spamming. This thread has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor or nitwitted conspiracy theories, and I suggest you do care, because your "discussion" seems to be more about derailing things...

When asked for examples ,examples were given. I get it - you give not time to conspiracy theories. And I am not the one demanding details of opinions .I would very much like to go back to Hess' flight as I too think this discussion has been derailed. Hess' flight is much more important than this idiotic attack on me and my opinions.

kurt
07-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Might this have had something to do with Germany marching into Poland?

Or did Britain and France do that as well?

Not to mention Britain and France staging the Gleiwitz incident, cunningly disguised as Poles cunningly concealing their true Nazi identities.

Get a grip on reality, for Christ's sake!



So how do you deal with Ford and GM supplying materiel to Germany before Germany declared war on the US?

Was this a declaration of war by the US on Britain?

Selective and distorted 'facts' prove nothing, apart from the bias or lack of understanding of the person putting them forward.

I'm sorry but it looks to me that you need to face reality, GM and Ford supporting Germany???
this is the summary of the costs and beneficiaries of Lend and Leasing Law:
All told, Lend-Lease provided $50.1 billion worth of supplies to the Allies during the conflict, with $31.4 billion to Britain, $11.3 billion to the Soviet Union, $3.2 billion to France and $1.6 billion to China.
I can not find Germany on that account.
Anyone who is interested in this issue can find a detailed information about the thousands of tanks, planes,submarines,ships, aluminium, locomotives, etc, etc, etc that were delivered to the british and russians before Pearl Harbour.

What I'm trying to explain is that the Soviets invaded Poland as well as Germany,just two weeks after , then, why didn't the allies declare war to the Soviet Union according to their will of protecting Poland??
Instead of that, they helped Stalin, a tyrant compared to whom Hitler was a rookie,

And if this was made in the sake of freedom, Eastern Europe lost it in the hands of the Red Army and was put in the darkness for 40 years, behind the iron curtain.

And for Mr. Nickdfresh, explain me what do you consider trolling, I can not find a proper translation for that word, but here we have been sharing ideas and information, if that is trolling, ok.

And for Tippokitty, you are in the right track, don't take anything for granted, find out for yourself.
It' is not that difficult to find the truth, it's far more difficult to handle it ( as Jack Nicholson said in a movie) Try not filling your heart with any rancor or anger.

Respectfully,

tankgeezer
07-03-2010, 08:59 PM
Mssr's Kurt, and Typokitty, This thread deals with Rudolph Hess' flight to England, not Israel, or Pearl Harbor. From now on, you will both confine your comments to that subject. Any further wandering in this thread will bring swift attention.