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Rising Sun*
05-31-2010, 07:36 AM
When is the rest of the world finally going to treat Israel as a rogue state with no respect for international law, international conventions, decent conduct and the rights of others?

Maybe a decade ago I was appalled by someone I knew approving guerrilla action against Israel and expressing a desire for "the Jews to be pushed back into the sea". I regret to say that I am finding it increasingly difficult to find any reason to resist that opinion in light of Israel's continual aggression, inside and outside Israel, to anyone who doesn't support the Zionist expanisionists.

Especially in light of the latest instalment of an attack in international waters, reminiscent in some ways of the USS Liberty strike four decades ago.


World in shock at deadly Gaza ship raid

ANKARA Shock and outrage swept the globe Monday after Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip, as the Jewish state's foes and allies closed ranks in condemning the deadly raid.

The UN's rights chief Navi Pillay said she was "shocked" at the violence of the raid, which left at least 10 dead, many of them reportedly Turks, while the European Union demanded a full inquiry from Tel-Aviv.

As the Islamist Hamas which rules in Gaza urged world Muslims to "rise up" in protest, police struggled to hold back an angry crowd of hundreds outside the Israeli consulate in Turkey's biggest city Istanbul.

Furious protesters shouted "Damn Israel" outside the residence of Israel's ambassador to Ankara, who was summoned for immediate talks as Turkey warned of "irreparable consequences" to bilateral ties.

"This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations," a written statement said.

"By targeting civilians, Israel has once again shown its disregard for human life and peaceful initiatives," Ankara said.

Israel claimed its naval forces were attacked by activists and that both sides used live fire, after they stormed six ships bound for besieged Gaza with thousands of tonnes of aid and hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists aboard.

But Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denounced the raid as "inhuman Zionist regime action."

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas declared three days of mourning over the "massacre," while the Arab League chief Amr Mussa called it a "crime" and said the 22-country body was consulting on its next step.

Kuwait's parliament speaker condemned the storming of the flotilla, which was carrying 16 Kuwaitis including an MP, as a "heinous Israeli crime."

In Europe, condemnation was equally swift.

The European Union demanded Israel mount a "full inquiry," with foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton demanding "an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening" of crossings to Gaza.

Spain -- the current European Union president -- Sweden and Greece summoned the Israeli ambassadors to their capitals to demand explanations, with Madrid slamming the operation as "unacceptable".

Greece, which had some 30 nationals on board the flotilla, also withdrew from joint military exercises with Israel in protest at the raid.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said he was "deeply shocked" by the Israeli raid and insisted "nothing can justify" such violence.

Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle also said he was "deeply concerned" about the deaths.

The bloody ending to the high-profile mission to deliver supplies to Gaza came on the eve of a meeting in Washington between President Barack Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Maen Bashur, a Lebanese activist and coordinator for a group called End the Blockade on Gaza, said they had expected the convoy to be "attacked" by the Israelis and considered those seized on board the ship as "war prisoners".

"For that reason we asked Hezbollah's leadership to act accordingly," Bashur said.

When asked whether he was encouraging the Shiite militant group to launch a cross-border raid and seize Israeli hostages, Bashur responded: "Hezbollah's leadership is wise and knows how to behave."

A Cyprus MEP Kyriacos Triantafyllides, who was prevented at the last minute from joining the aid mission, told the Cypriot news agency CNA that activists had "expected a strong reaction from Israel."

"But nobody believed it would come to this point where they would face something akin to an invading army," he said. http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jLbLilqcZlIOwbCk3hQFR6qZcFGw

pdf27
05-31-2010, 08:04 AM
Like the Liberty attack (and more recently the Hanit), I suspect this is a matter of incompetence rather than malice. When it comes to competence the Israeli Navy are the worst of a bad lot.
Rather more interesting will be the US and Turkish responses. Turkey is in NATO, which may make it rather difficult for the US to provide it's usual blanket support - and coming so close after the Biden/Settlement fiasco, it has little reason to wish to.

Rising Sun*
05-31-2010, 08:40 AM
I suspect this is a matter of incompetence rather than malice.

I must be less charitable than you, and more inclined to believe the Israeli claims about the superior abilities of their armed forces.

I don't see any incompentence in intercepting a flotilla on the high seas; dropping commandos from helos at sea; and stopping the advancing flotilla.

It strikes me as highly competent.

Albeit politically arrogant and stupid as far as influencing international opinion in favour of Israel, but that's been its position since about 1948 so I don't see why there would be a change now.

If people I know are any indication, those who once had much sympathy for Israel are now becoming its harsh critics and unwilling to support it if it reaps what it has sowed against its neighbours.

Acts like the most recent reinforce those antagonistic opinions out of all proportion to whatever harm Israel might have suffered by allowing the flotilla to land.

As usual, the Zionists shit on everyone else in pursuit of their God-given right to occupy Israel and expand it to its biblical borders and beyond, while demanding that the rest of the world support them and defend them against the enemies they steadily increase by their expansionist actions, and while drawing the rest of the world into an unnecessary conflict in defense of the indefensible.

Nickdfresh
06-01-2010, 09:43 AM
The Israelis are acting with all the rationality of North Korea these days. Their scofflaw, arrogant behavior is getting very old and so is the U.S. underwriting of much of it...

pdf27
06-01-2010, 10:38 AM
I must be less charitable than you, and more inclined to believe the Israeli claims about the superior abilities of their armed forces.
That's rather a stretch of the imagination. Remember that Israel took more casualties in trying to grab a strip of Southern Lebanon about 5 miles wide against a terrorist group than the US/UK coalition did in taking over a sizeable nation state (Iraq) and running it for quite some time.

For a rather good debunking of the abilities of the Israeli Armed Forces (particularly the Navy), read this essay on the USS Liberty incident (http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69&p=35307). The level of competence displayed over time make HMS Troutbridge look like an elite unit.

pdf27
06-01-2010, 10:48 AM
Pay particular attention to the story of the INS Miznak at the end. In any competent navy, a crewman asleep at his post in peacetime would get a proper shoeing. In this case, the entire watch was asleep at their post in wartime - and only by accident woke up in time to avoid being sunk.

Iron Yeoman
06-01-2010, 02:26 PM
That's rather a stretch of the imagination. Remember that Israel took more casualties in trying to grab a strip of Southern Lebanon about 5 miles wide against a terrorist group than the US/UK coalition did in taking over a sizeable nation state (Iraq) and running it for quite some time.

For a rather good debunking of the abilities of the Israeli Armed Forces (particularly the Navy), read this essay on the USS Liberty incident (http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69&p=35307). The level of competence displayed over time make HMS Troutbridge look like an elite unit.

"Left hand down a bit" :D

Rising Sun*
06-01-2010, 08:39 PM
For a rather good debunking of the abilities of the Israeli Armed Forces (particularly the Navy), read this essay on the USS Liberty incident (http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69&p=35307). The level of competence displayed over time make HMS Troutbridge look like an elite unit.

Thanks for the link.

Interesting reading. I made a bit of a study of the Liberty incident some years back. Your link gives a new and plausible explanation.

As for the Israeli armed forces, I've always assumed that they were pretty proficient but maybe it is just a case of having poor opponents. They certainly didn't do too well when their commandos landed on the aid ships a few days ago.

pdf27
06-02-2010, 01:17 AM
Yeah, until I read that essay I simply didn't believe it could be an accident, because the level of incompetence required would be so high. What Stuart does very well is demonstrate that the Israelis really were that incompetent, over a period of time.
The problem with Arab armies in particular isn't at the bottom with the troops, but at the top. Competent generals are a threat to the regime and are removed, while competent NCOs as a class do not exist. Furthermore, the cultural concept of "knowledge as power" is taken to such extremes that training troops is next to impossible. Jordan is a bit better (possibly because the entire royal family, male and female, do the British Army Commissioning Course at Sandhurst), but not all that much.

Rising Sun*
06-02-2010, 01:28 AM
Here's a direct link with the Liberty.

Clearly not a man who subscribes to the motto "Once bitten, twice shy".


A US Navy veteran who was on board the USS Liberty, which Israel attacked during the Six Day War, is now missing after taking part in the conflict-ridden flotilla, US news agencies reported Tuesday.

Sixty-three year-old Joe Miduras, of the Texas town of Corpus Christi, has not yet made contact with his wife, Jean. She has so far remained unconcerned, however, saying she didn't think he had been hurt.

Miduras was a soldier on board the USS Liberty, which came under fire by Israeli warplanes and torpedoes on the fourth day of the 1967 war. As a result, 34 crew members were killed. "We have no luck with Israelis," his wife joked http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897160,00.html

imi
11-23-2010, 11:36 AM
The zionist exploit the american assistance because the americans regard to the israelis to God choosen peoples.
Some jewish impostor who a simple criminal charachter,entirely evolution believer,and also a great actor use this defence to the own objectives,under the name of God completely free,and without penalty.

Nickdfresh
11-23-2010, 09:34 PM
The zionist exploit the american assistance because the americans regard to the israelis to God choosen peoples.


Um, you're overstating this a bit. Americans support Israel for various reasons ranging from: a genuine humanitarian fear of what would happen if a 'competent' Arab power had ever conquered Israel, guilt over the Holocaust, a powerful Israeli-congressional lobby that doesn't really represent the politics of most Jewish-Americans, a superstitious notion of some extremist/evangelical Christians that the 'rapture' and other (pseudo) Biblical prophecies will take place if only if Israel exists, a nostalgia for the Cold War and a time when the U.S. and Israel came together in a time of common interests, a basic affinity for the underdog, and a somewhat false notion that Israel's battle against terrorism somehow mirrors the U.S. fight against al Qaida or friction with Iran. I'm pretty sure most Americans think that WE'RE God's chosen people! :)


Some jewish impostor who a simple criminal charachter,entirely evolution believer,and also a great actor use this defence to the own objectives,under the name of God completely free,and without penalty.

I don't understand what you are saying...

imi
11-24-2010, 07:54 AM
I don't understand what you are saying...

some jew make simple criminal or terrorist activity for money under his citizenship defense(to win the israeli citizenship you must learn and pass many tests,to show you are deserve the citizenship paper) and their spiritual tribute without limits.
Some jews pervert and step over their own laws for personal unsymphaty,or money if the target to win their objectives or "take advantage" from the holocaust,to adduce racism to account every criminal or terrorist act for the money.
Shame

Rising Sun*
11-24-2010, 08:03 AM
Um, you're overstating this a bit. Americans support Israel for various reasons ranging from: a genuine humanitarian fear of what would happen if a 'competent' Arab power had ever conquered Israel, guilt over the Holocaust, a powerful Israeli-congressional lobby that doesn't really represent the politics of most Jewish-Americans, a superstitious notion of some extremist/evangelical Christians that the 'rapture' and other (pseudo) Biblical prophecies will take place if only if Israel exists, a nostalgia for the Cold War and a time when the U.S. and Israel came together in a time of common interests, a basic affinity for the underdog, and a somewhat false notion that Israel's battle against terrorism somehow mirrors the U.S. fight against al Qaida or friction with Iran.

That about sums it up.

You are blessed to live in a country of such grand diversity, where your Constitution guarantees the right of every idiot to express his belief.

Down here we don't have any such constitutional guarantees but, unlike your optional voting system, we have compulsory voting. This ensures that although all our idiots don't have any right to express their beliefs, they must vote in every municipal, state and national election, presumably to ensure that the idiot component is properly represented in the representatives they elect. And, believe me, it is!

imi
11-24-2010, 08:05 AM
and this isn't a neo nazi theory this is real

Nickdfresh
11-24-2010, 09:50 PM
Actually, it's thinly antisemitic tripe of the conspiratorial bullshit kind. The kind that's not well tolerated here...

Rising Sun*
11-25-2010, 06:03 AM
Actually, it's thinly antisemitic tripe of the conspiratorial bullshit kind. The kind that's not well tolerated here...

That was my first impression of imi's last post, but on reading it several times to try to understand what he was getting at I wondered if perhaps his English wasn't good enough to express what are fairly widely held and legitimate views.

For example, his comment that some Jews "take advantage" from the holocaust,to adduce racism to account every criminal or terrorist act accords with my view and that of many others that some Jews and just about every Zionist plays the Holocaust card to justify Zionist outrages which display much the same racist contempt for the Palestinians as the Nazis did for the Jews, albeit not taken to the extermination level of the Nazis. The Zionists just pursue the same pre-Holocaust policy as the Nazis of denying equal rights to the Palestinians and making life unbearable for them until they emigrate.

imi did add 'for the money' to the quoted comment, which perhaps reflects a certain odious view of Jews as shylocks etc, but if my interpretation of his main comment is correct I would see his comment as fair comment rather than what is commonly and, given that Arabs are Semites, wrongly described as anti-Semitic.