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commanderk
03-07-2010, 11:35 AM
Do you think that here will ever be pease, if yes so how?
Do you belive in 2 countries for 2 nations or 1 country for 2 nations?
Do you think that Israel is acting like Nazis and did war crimes?
Do you think that Obama helps for the peace?
Do you see Hamas as a terror organization?

Sorry for English mistakes ;)

Nickdfresh
03-07-2010, 03:52 PM
You might want to read the following thread, for starters:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5188

Rising Sun*
03-08-2010, 07:35 AM
Do you think that here will ever be pease, if yes so how?

Yes.

As everything else has failed and will continue to fail while the same recalcitrant people and intransigent attitudes are there, just nuke the Middle East back to the seventh century CE, which is where most of it is mentally at the moment anyway.


Do you belive in 2 countries for 2 nations or 1 country for 2 nations?

See above.


Do you think that Israel is acting like Nazis and did war crimes?

Yes. But more Kristallnacht and Warsaw Ghetto than Auschwitz. So far.


Do you think that Obama helps for the peace?

As Israel has spent the past 60 years doing everything it can to avoid peace despite huge international efforts by successive US Presidents and many others inside and outside the US, why should Obama or anyone else waste any more time on it?

Why should it be an American President's duty to bring peace to Israel when Israel's own leaders have done everything they can to frustrate American Presidents' efforts at peace?

God forfend that Israel and Zionists should ever accept responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions, instead of being eternal ****ing victims.

See first answer.


Do you see Hamas as a terror organization?


No more than Israel.

They're as bad as each other. While both believe they occupy the high moral ground. And everyone outside can see that neither does.

See first answer.

commanderk
03-08-2010, 07:39 AM
Yes.

As everything else has failed and will continue to fail while the same recalcitrant people and intransigent attitudes are there, just nuke the Middle East back to the seventh century CE, which is where most of it is mentally at the moment anyway.



See above.



Yes. But more Kristallnacht and Warsaw Ghetto than Auschwitz. So far.



As Israel has spent the past 60 years doing everything it can to avoid peace despite huge international efforts by successive US Presidents and many others inside and outside the US, why should Obama or anyone else waste any more time on it?

Why should it be an American President's duty to bring peace to Israel when Israel's own leaders have done everything they can to frustrate American Presidents' efforts at peace?

God forfend that Israel and Zionists should ever accept responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions, instead of being eternal ****ing victims.

See first answer.



No more than Israel.

They're as bad as each other. While both believe they occupy the high moral ground. And everyone outside can see that neither does.

See first answer.

OK.. Anybody else?

Uyraell
12-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Simplified description, but essentially correct.

Israel may well have the right to exist, despite that it was founded against the wishes of various nations, UK, France, and USA included.

The Jewish people have a right to a homeland, wherein they may live their lives in reasonable peace and prosperity.

HOWEVER: ALL of that is placed at severe risk by the fact that elements within modern Israeli society risk becoming (if they have not already become) as Fascist and aggressive, as xenophobic and expansionist, as the NSDAP the state of Israel was allegedly founded in reaction to, and to avoid. In short, modern Israel has become as Fascist as the uncaring Europe it was founded in reaction to.

Regards, Uyraell.

PS: Bear in mind, I write the opinion I give above as a person who is "pro-Israeli" BUT also as a person who is considerably LESS "pro-Israeli" than I was a couple of decades ago. The reason for the diminishment of my support for Israel resides in the posting given here.

Rising Sun*
12-07-2010, 07:47 AM
PS: Bear in mind, I write the opinion I give above as a person who is "pro-Israeli" BUT also as a person who is considerably LESS "pro-Israeli" than I was a couple of decades ago. The reason for the diminishment of my support for Israel resides in the posting given here.

I've travelled the same road, except I don't have any sympathy for the Zionists, as distinct from non-Zionist Israelis and Jews, any more.

I judge them by their actions, not their words.

Uyraell
12-08-2010, 09:56 PM
RS* my friend, Zionists hold little sway with me. Zionism is an ideological cant much as is Lebensraum.

However, with my usual disdain for matters political, I tend to ignore Zionists as both extremist and fringe, their great influentuality notwithstanding.

Thus, while I respect unreservedly those few Jews I know, amongst whom are some dear friends, I tend to ignore completely the Zionist cant.
My friends certainly are not Zionists, and indeed share my disdain of them.

Therefore, to me, the distinction is both axiomatic and automatic.
Much as, while a rifle and a sword are both weapons, the usage of each is vastly different.

Warm, Kind, and Respectful Regards RS* my friend, Uyraell.

Iron Yeoman
12-09-2010, 09:03 AM
My take on this is as follows;

A Palestinian state is required ASAP. A legitimate sovereign nation for Palestine will make a massive difference. Firstly it will stop the Israelis dropping massive amounts of HE on what little Palestinian infrastructre there is, as its a little bit harder trying to justify bombing a sovereign nation in retalition for some kids throwing stones at your rather well armoured tank.

Palestine needs legitimacy as a state so it can start to build the infrastructre of a state (hospitals, police, pensions, welfare, transport, agriculture etc) from this industry can be created thereby creating jobs and wealth. Once jobs and wealth are created hopefully fewer young Palestinian men will feel there's little else to do other than fighting the Israelis.

Furthermore, I would hope (hope being the operative word) that nationhood would stop Hamas & Fatah fighting one another and they might actually start working for their own people rather than their own fiefdoms. (Probably a pipe dream)

And the next two points are very key in my view;
Israel need to stop blowing the s**t out of the Palestinians. There responses are often overblown, its not a case of an eye for an eye more like 2 limbs, a kidney and a lung for an eye. There destroying what little the Palestinians have and are making the people more desperate and are turning the place into a (I hate to use the word as being part jewish myself) ghetto.
And for their part, Hamas need to stop provoking the Israelis. They're only heaping more misery on their own people and preventing anyone believing they are a political force worth dealing with.

Feel free to disect my opinions in your leisure.

Rising Sun*
12-09-2010, 09:37 AM
My take on this is as follows;

A Palestinian state is required ASAP. A legitimate sovereign nation for Palestine will make a massive difference. Firstly it will stop the Israelis dropping massive amounts of HE on what little Palestinian infrastructre there is, as its a little bit harder trying to justify bombing a sovereign nation in retalition for some kids throwing stones at your rather well armoured tank.

Palestine needs legitimacy as a state so it can start to build the infrastructre of a state (hospitals, police, pensions, welfare, transport, agriculture etc) from this industry can be created thereby creating jobs and wealth. Once jobs and wealth are created hopefully fewer young Palestinian men will feel there's little else to do other than fighting the Israelis.

That all makes sense.

The only problem is that the Zionists / Israelis happen to be occupying the relevant geography. And they're not going to give it up. Even if they astonish the world by giving up their ever-expanding 'settlements'.

Unless, of course, as becomes increasingly likely with each passing year, the Zionist/Israeli arrogance and intransigence results in Iran or some other nation destroying Israel by one or another means.


And the next two points are very key in my view;
Israel need to stop blowing the s**t out of the Palestinians. There responses are often overblown, its not a case of an eye for an eye more like 2 limbs, a kidney and a lung for an eye. There destroying what little the Palestinians have and are making the people more desperate and are turning the place into a (I hate to use the word as being part jewish myself) ghetto.
And for their part, Hamas need to stop provoking the Israelis. They're only heaping more misery on their own people and preventing anyone believing they are a political force worth dealing with.

All very reasonable.

Unfortunately, there's no point putting forward reasonable points to people who, on one side, lack reason because they base their arguments on a tenancy vacated for a couple of millennia which they say they are entitled to resume because of selective interpretations of the Old Testament and their remnant people being discouraged from remaining in Europe by the depredations of another bunch of irrational zealots.

On the other hand, we have a lack of reason because we have a justifiably embittered people, being the Palestinians, whose Arab brothers are suitably outraged by their plight but who for decades have done very little to alleviate it while beating their breasts about the plight of the Palestinians as subterfuge for expressions of the underlying Islamic opposition to Judaism.

The simple fact is that an invader displaced the people with legitimate title and residence and has spent the past sixty years pursuing an avowed policy of making sure they don't come back.

It's an intractable problem, which might best be solved by an annihilating nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel. Which would be a significant benefit for the rest of the world.

Because, like many people who once had sympathy for Israel, I really don't care any more whether they sink or swim, because they always shit in their own nest and shit on everybody else within range. And expect the rest of the world to tolerate it, while moaning about how the terrible treatment they received under the Nazis justifies their equally, in nature if not degree, appalling policies and actions towards everyone who isn't a Zionist or, at least, a Jew.

flyerhell
12-24-2010, 02:16 AM
This is an interesting topic to read on this forum because most people on this forum are well-versed in history, as opposed to other forums where people with no historical backgrounds attack Israel.

I know this topic is a few weeks old but I wanted to reply to some of your points...I am sick and it is late so I can't form as strong arguments as I usually would be able to but here goes:



Yes. But more Kristallnacht and Warsaw Ghetto than Auschwitz. So far.

This isn't true and is a huge exageration of the mistreatment of the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs by the Israelis. While I am not going to claim that the Israelis treat the Palestinians living in Israel (Israeli Arabs) equally to other Jews and certainly don't always treat the Palestinians living in the occupied territories fairly, Krstallnacht was a planned demonstration against the Jews in Germany and Austria. 30,000 Jews were arrested and sent to camps and nearly every single Jewish temple was destroyed. There are mosques throughout Israel, Gaza and the West Bank that were not destroyed when the Israelis took control of the area (in fact, the Israelis are working to restore some of the mosques in places like Jaffa). On the contrary, there is at least one instance where the Palestinians razed a Jewish temple in Gaza after the 2005 Israeli pullout.

The same with the Warsaw Ghetto comment - the Nazis brought Jews from all over Europe and forced them to stay and live in the Warsaw Ghetto, killing them if they tried to escape. The Palestinians can go anywhere they would like, including out of the country.



Unless, of course, as becomes increasingly likely with each passing year, the Zionist/Israeli arrogance and intransigence results in Iran or some other nation destroying Israel by one or another means.

We both know that that will NEVER happen. Any country that attacks Israel would be crazy because they would then need to deal with the US. Israel is a small country and can't absorb an attack like that from Iran, while the Iranians can absorb strikes by Israel. That said, the US would retaliate against Iran as well, not to mention that any country with ties to Iran would cut them off immediatley. The price of oil would sky rocket and the whole world would be a huge mess. The bottom line is, attacking Israel would give the Iranians more trouble than it would be worth for them.



On the other hand, we have a lack of reason because we have a justifiably embittered people, being the Palestinians, whose Arab brothers are suitably outraged by their plight but who for decades have done very little to alleviate it while beating their breasts about the plight of the Palestinians as subterfuge for expressions of the underlying Islamic opposition to Judaism.



The simple fact is that an invader displaced the people with legitimate title and residence and has spent the past sixty years pursuing an avowed policy of making sure they don't come back.

I don't want to jump into the debate about the Palestinians being forced to leave as opposed to being told to leave by the Arab countries but this also touches on the topic about Jews living in Arab countries before 1948.

What people seem to ALWAYS forget is that it wasn't just the Palestinians losing land but that millions of Jews living in Arab countries (Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, etc) were forced to leave their land as well. The difference between the Jews from the Arab countries and the Palestinians leaving Israel is the the Jews were absorbed by Israel, while the Arab countries never absorbed the Palestinians (that is why there are 60 year old refugee camps in places like Jordan and Lebanon)....and the Arab countries (especially Jordan, read about Black September of 1970) treated the Palestinians very badly. Would the Israelis be welcomed with open arms back into the Arab countries that they were forced out of?

My point is that while you mentioned that the Palestinians were justifiably angry (and I am not claiming that they don't have a right to be angry), it isn't completely the fault of the Israelis for that anger...and the Arab countries and Palestinians aren't completely innocent either. In fact, when Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank before the 1967 war, why were there no calls for a Palestinian state then?



And expect the rest of the world to tolerate it, while moaning about how the terrible treatment they received under the Nazis justifies their equally, in nature if not degree, appalling policies and actions towards everyone who isn't a Zionist or, at least, a Jew.

OK, there are a few things here I need to mention, along with some other general points (not all replying to this quote):

1) On this forum (better than most other forums) we know what the Holocaust was and was not. Like I mentioned above, we all know that the Israelis don't treat the Palestinians as well as they could or should. However, the Holocaust is no comparison and should NEVER be compared to the way that the Israelis treat the Palestinians. Again, we know what the Holocaust was so I am not going to compare everything but if you really believe this, please post an example of a similarity between the two.

2) The Jews, for thousands of years, were oppressed people. The Jews were kicked out of every single country in Europe at one time or another, eventually culminating in the Holocaust. Granted, this isn't the fault of the Palestinians but wouldn't you be pretty pissed off after that? The Arabs, on the other hand, always had numerous countries that they could live peacefully in.

3) Before Israel was formed (pre 1948), there were numerous riots by Palestinian Arabs against Palestinian Jews (offhand, I can think of riots in 1920, 1921, 1929 and 1938). These riots also contributed to the anger of the Jews toward the Palestinians during and after the 1948 war.

4) The Palestinians were offered statehood numerous times and turned down the Israeli offers each time. While the argument about the Israelis preventing the Palestinians from creating their own succesful state might have worked prior to the 1993 Oslo Accords (and especially after the 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza), rather than focusing on making themselves succesful, the Palestinians decided to attack and kill each other (Fatah VS Hamas) and continue to attack Israel. Here is an example:

When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, the Israelis left greenhouses that were transferred to the PA (purchased from Israeli settlers with American Jewish money for the PA). Rather than utilizing the greenhouses to feed their own population, the Palestinians (sometimes joined by police) decided to loot and destroy the greenhouses (source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/)

Anyway, just some thoughts I wanted to share.....

Rising Sun*
12-24-2010, 09:36 AM
This is an interesting topic to read on this forum because most people on this forum are well-versed in history, as opposed to other forums where people with no historical backgrounds attack Israel.

I know this topic is a few weeks old but I wanted to reply to some of your points...I am sick and it is late so I can't form as strong arguments as I usually would be able to but here goes:



This isn't true and is a huge exageration of the mistreatment of the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs by the Israelis. While I am not going to claim that the Israelis treat the Palestinians living in Israel (Israeli Arabs) equally to other Jews and certainly don't always treat the Palestinians living in the occupied territories fairly, Krstallnacht was a planned demonstration against the Jews in Germany and Austria. 30,000 Jews were arrested and sent to camps and nearly every single Jewish temple was destroyed. There are mosques throughout Israel, Gaza and the West Bank that were not destroyed when the Israelis took control of the area (in fact, the Israelis are working to restore some of the mosques in places like Jaffa). On the contrary, there is at least one instance where the Palestinians razed a Jewish temple in Gaza after the 2005 Israeli pullout.

The same with the Warsaw Ghetto comment - the Nazis brought Jews from all over Europe and forced them to stay and live in the Warsaw Ghetto, killing them if they tried to escape. The Palestinians can go anywhere they would like, including out of the country.



We both know that that will NEVER happen. Any country that attacks Israel would be crazy because they would then need to deal with the US. Israel is a small country and can't absorb an attack like that from Iran, while the Iranians can absorb strikes by Israel. That said, the US would retaliate against Iran as well, not to mention that any country with ties to Iran would cut them off immediatley. The price of oil would sky rocket and the whole world would be a huge mess. The bottom line is, attacking Israel would give the Iranians more trouble than it would be worth for them.





I don't want to jump into the debate about the Palestinians being forced to leave as opposed to being told to leave by the Arab countries but this also touches on the topic about Jews living in Arab countries before 1948.

What people seem to ALWAYS forget is that it wasn't just the Palestinians losing land but that millions of Jews living in Arab countries (Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, etc) were forced to leave their land as well. The difference between the Jews from the Arab countries and the Palestinians leaving Israel is the the Jews were absorbed by Israel, while the Arab countries never absorbed the Palestinians (that is why there are 60 year old refugee camps in places like Jordan and Lebanon)....and the Arab countries (especially Jordan, read about Black September of 1970) treated the Palestinians very badly. Would the Israelis be welcomed with open arms back into the Arab countries that they were forced out of?

My point is that while you mentioned that the Palestinians were justifiably angry (and I am not claiming that they don't have a right to be angry), it isn't completely the fault of the Israelis for that anger...and the Arab countries and Palestinians aren't completely innocent either. In fact, when Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank before the 1967 war, why were there no calls for a Palestinian state then?



OK, there are a few things here I need to mention, along with some other general points (not all replying to this quote):

1) On this forum (better than most other forums) we know what the Holocaust was and was not. Like I mentioned above, we all know that the Israelis don't treat the Palestinians as well as they could or should. However, the Holocaust is no comparison and should NEVER be compared to the way that the Israelis treat the Palestinians. Again, we know what the Holocaust was so I am not going to compare everything but if you really believe this, please post an example of a similarity between the two.

2) The Jews, for thousands of years, were oppressed people. The Jews were kicked out of every single country in Europe at one time or another, eventually culminating in the Holocaust. Granted, this isn't the fault of the Palestinians but wouldn't you be pretty pissed off after that? The Arabs, on the other hand, always had numerous countries that they could live peacefully in.

3) Before Israel was formed (pre 1948), there were numerous riots by Palestinian Arabs against Palestinian Jews (offhand, I can think of riots in 1920, 1921, 1929 and 1938). These riots also contributed to the anger of the Jews toward the Palestinians during and after the 1948 war.

4) The Palestinians were offered statehood numerous times and turned down the Israeli offers each time. While the argument about the Israelis preventing the Palestinians from creating their own succesful state might have worked prior to the 1993 Oslo Accords (and especially after the 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza), rather than focusing on making themselves succesful, the Palestinians decided to attack and kill each other (Fatah VS Hamas) and continue to attack Israel. Here is an example:

When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, the Israelis left greenhouses that were transferred to the PA (purchased from Israeli settlers with American Jewish money for the PA). Rather than utilizing the greenhouses to feed their own population, the Palestinians (sometimes joined by police) decided to loot and destroy the greenhouses (source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/)

Anyway, just some thoughts I wanted to share.....

There's a bit I could say in reply, and may in coming days, but on Xmas Eve (okay, that ended 1 hr 35 mins ago, but I'm a liberal and Xmas day shits me mightily ;) :D ) I think it'd be nice if the whole world could manage all year a bit of the Xmas spirit of peace and goodwill towards all people.

Smoking Frog
01-21-2011, 02:50 PM
Do you think that here will ever be pease, if yes so how?
Do you belive in 2 countries for 2 nations or 1 country for 2 nations?
Do you think that Israel is acting like Nazis and did war crimes?
Do you think that Obama helps for the peace?
Do you see Hamas as a terror organization?

Sorry for English mistakes ;)

Shalom,
1) Yes, because although there are idiots and fanatics on both sides most Jews and Arabs are decent people who want to live in a peaceful world. In the end they will get there, but I guess it will be a long road.
2) The 2 state solution is definately the way to go.
3) Although the provocation is often very great, some of the actions if the Israeli army are not acceptable. They are not on a Nazi scale, but it is sad that (some of) a people who suffered so much in their history now inflict pain on others
4) I think Obama will probably do more than George W Bush, as his name was mud in the Arab world and it would be hard for him to be credible.
5) Yes; but nor am I wholly surprised that they were voted in when the people felt the previous government had failed them. Also, it is not appropriate for the west to object when as far as I know the election was fair.

No worries on English - better than my Hebrew! Mazeltoff!