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von_Kasbegi414
03-06-2010, 10:38 AM
Do you know something more about German - during the WW2 developed assault rifles? Maybe, most of you know at least something about MP44 / StG.44 and thats all.

But does anyone knows something about other projects before and after StG.44? Probably no...

Does someone knows that Germans developed the world's first balanced AR in 1942!
It was army competition winning MKb.42 H - Haenel was its designer and inventor- which used simple steel stick with spring and inner gas piston (Gaszylinder) at the end of the above "barrel", and its reduces the barrels lifting power after the bullet was fired from the weapon.

This design was far superior to later produced MP44. But Hitler dislikes its design and form, coz he has thought that MP40 is good enough to fill all 'duties' on the battlefield.

The later developed weapon has been created just to be not dismissed by Hitler. this was why the worser, but simplier MP44 was created and produced. But it was in time when the Third Reich was weaker as never before.

If he (A.H.) accepted the opinion of the technical officers and soldiers from test units, maybe the WW2 would turn in other historical way.

The MKb.42 H, had fully closed its development at the end of 1942! -and same month (october/november) it passed very succesfully through the Army specifications for the weapon which should replace the K98k and MP40.

MKb.42 H was not only the prototype but weapon completely ready for mass production- which could start immediately after acceptation by Hitler- planned on the beginning of 1943.

The MKb.42 H, was assault rifle with simple combined active-passive mechanical balancing gas system + gas pistonin the above the main barrel mounted gas 'barrel' which was connected with main barrel only through a narrow gas channel at the end of the main barrel.

Today are some ideas used in by russian made AK107 and 108 and in AEK971, coz after the WW2 russian army had taken almost all constructeurs of german MP44, StG.45 and some scientists which participated earlier by the development of MKb.42 H and 42 W (-Walther's unsuccessful design).

They were in USSR for a year and some months and they had to tell all of by them invented ideas and technical details
to Red army weapon experts.

Later that time, the AK47 was short after this german 'visit' modified and re-invented with technical details which came from german constructeurs of MP44.

Other assault rifle patents and design ideas were stored into Red Army and KGB archives and fully classified for possible use in future.

Todays 'top' russian assault rifles just use the ideas collected from the german scientists after WW2.

and why did not Russian army use the patents of MKb.42 H sooner? they wanted some simple , cheap and reliable design for which was the design of MP44 better- which was simplified and its technical ideas were put into AK47 project. AK47 is lighter and smaller than MP44, and more accurate- It could say that Russian contructeur M. Kalashnikov had just simplified and far developed StG44/MP44.

The MKb.42 H was a bit more expensive than MP44, and needed better qualified workers than MP44 and its production was some hours longer- but other way, MKb.42 H was (is) still much than superior to MP44 in accuracy, better ergonomics and ofc in partially ballanced action in full auto shooting... it was even superior to later from the StG.44 developed AK47.

In its time it was the best assault rifle in world and both with the fact it was in that time the first and fully for mass production ready assault rifle with balanced action too.

More about this is in my archive on which I've been working more than 4 years.

Here is mentioned too the StG.45M a cheaper and lighter alternative and competitor to the too heavy MP44, which production of one StG.45 cost only a half price of one MP44.

There will you read more about FG-45 too, a successor of FG-42 which was too heavy and expensive- thats why only under 10 000pcs were produced. This was a bit lighter as MP44, and its production was about half shorter as FG42's and about 1/4 cheaper than production of one FG-42.

There is info and pictures about the MG45, a further development of MG42 which was more cheaper as MG42 + with possibility for higher mass production and with some increase in firepower in comparison with standard MG42.

Below is the link for this my comprehensive archive: (its final version is v3.2f_finEN, but i found in the info texts many grammar mistakes and mistypings- i will rework and correct the grammar in info texts, the new version will call v3.4f_EN and should be without grammar issues+mistypings and some new info things will be added there too).

If you want to know from where are my sources, it is from some old and new books about firearms (about 6 fat books)- but they wouldnt be enough to make this complete archive about very rare and rare weapons. Most of the rare weapons werent mentioned in that books.

Most of the new info are from museums in Austria, Czech rep. and Slovakia- coz on our middleuropian territory were they (Germans) producing and testing new type of weapons, coz for long time during the WW2 werent here any bomb raids, so the germans have here their testing facilities and testing factories and research affiliates.

In this archive, some of you will see that my English isnt the very best, but many of information texts to concrete weapon projects, I have written them in short time- its why some mistyping can be easily found there and LoL like grammar errors and issues.

As I've told, very soon i will revise all of them and fix. - the mistypings and other 'bugs'.

Since v3.2f_EN version have many things in the archive changed, but the version v3.2f_finEN includes same weapons (pictures and technical drawings) as good as still corrected v3.4f_EN, which will I upload after i fix the grammar issues and mistypings in info texts.

(Truth is that the current version- v3.2f_finEN is an updated version of older v3.2f_EN, with some grammar and mistyping issues fixed)



The link is on MediaFire (safe and fast download guaranteed):

http://www.mediafire.com/?xoyyomdtzik

Enjoy this amazing story about that secret and important development in WW2 Germany...

and PLS post me your opinions on my work too.

commanderk
03-07-2010, 03:54 AM
Sounds intersting, soon check it out.

burp
03-08-2010, 04:44 AM
Germany also developed the FG42 (http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl11-e.htm), an automatic rifle with integrated optic with two fire mode created for elite unite Fallschirmjager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallschirmjager), but it remains not well suited for full automatic fire and the Stg.45 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as93-
e.htm), a refined version of Mp44, lighter and cheaper than his predecessor.
The Fg42 was used as inspiration for M60 (http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg12-e.htm).
The Stg.45 was used as base for CETME A, B, modelo 58, C Assault Rifles (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm), HK G3 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as12-e.htm) and HK MP5 (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg14-e.htm).

von_Kasbegi414
03-08-2010, 01:03 PM
the FG42 was adopted as self loading-sniper rifle, only obviously was used as assault rifle, because it has too big recoil- for the use of 7.92x57 Mauser cartidge. Can be used as support LMG when placed on its bipod.

The US invented from it a prototype LMG called T44-1, which was very uncommon weird combination, which was using the mayor parts from FG42 and some parts were adopted from MG42.

The main reason why was FG45 designed, was its smaller weight, the mass of the whole weapon was better balanced, cheaper in production process + much lower price and completion time in comparison with FG42, much better accuracy (big compensator and gas-muzzle brake at the end of the barrel) - and too there was planned to test the other version of FG45 (FJStG.45) which would use 7.92x33 Kurzpatrone 43 m.E (Kurz) in place of too powerful standard 7.92 IS Mauser, this version should to be fed from the belt of cartridges or use the 20 bullets mag.

This second version has been never built in prototype.

P.S. burp, im happy that someone has dug something more about the StG.45M,
on the web are many informations about StG45M, but many are uncorrect,
but these yours are correct that namely the CETME rifles were very strongly influenced by patents used in StG45M,
and today some of its ideas are still used in G3, and in present HK MP5...and i think that the HK417 (7.62mm NATO) use many of principles of StG45M, but its just actual and further development of these ideas that are still living till today - in such perfect rifle like HK417.

HK416 solution is a bit lighter, coz its closer to M16 standards, but is far better than actual M4/M16 AR's. the best AR's today are HK417/416, G36, and FN Scar (I like most the Scar in Heavy configuration ;P). and the children of old first-balanced rifle the MKb.42 H is paratrically used in AK107 and AEK-971 design, which make russian ar's much more accurate than other riffles.

and it brings me the question,- how will result this, when the competition between modernised and balanced AKs vs Western rifles like HK417/416 or G36 or FN Scar was done?

probably the actual AKs* will won above them in some specific features,
but russian machinery was always worser in precision and quality of its production than western countries- thats was the main Why they not tried to make the evolution of technical patents and ideas used in Mkb.42 H sooner. As i have told in my first post on the start of this topic, they stored MKb.42 H technical drawings and patents into the Secret archives of the Red Army and KGB.

(Thanks God xD, they were most of the time inaccurate in precision and quality of all of their products- same by cars, foods, clothes and weapons LoL)

*(much better is AEK971,
which is better weighted and is very easy in handling and switching from previous fire mode to other fire mode+ the control elements were totally redesigned as was newer by the switches on AKs [namely AK47,74 to AK105 rifles]- which were uneasy to switch in some situations mostly during the fight). AEK has too very ergonomical design, with very widely its using composite and hardened polymer (plastic) materials to save more from the weapon's weight.

BYE ComraDES in Arms ;D, your von Kasbegi

-ask me if you have some special questions on me, but I recommend you to read and see the infos and schemas in my archive about this topic.

burp
03-08-2010, 01:46 PM
Sorry, but regarding FG42 i'm not agree you.
The FG42 is created after Battle of Creta, where Fallschirmjager are decimated from New Zeeland good shooters and machine guns. When Fallschirmjager were dropped they has a Walther P38 as pistol and hand granades. All long weapons are dropped in parachuted canister. English from dugged positions simply sniped all Germans because only few of them reach safetly the canister, so the volume of fire is a fraction of English one.
Starting from this the Reich Air Ministry issue an order for a weapon capable to be very light and effective like as submachine gun and rifle, so the Fallschirmjager can use it as personal weapon from the drop instead of recovering weapon under enemy fire. Obviosly it means that it is aimed to replace Kar98k, G43, Mg43 and Mp43/44. For achieving this result the Lutwaffe retains the rifle bullet while the Heer promote the 7.92 Kurz that is the base for development of successfull Mp44.
In real the FG42 it's not very very good. The presence of heavy magazine on one side of weapon has some drawbacks with accuracy for not well-trained soldier. Also with integral bipod the FG42 cannot be useful with full automatic fire. Fallschirmjager are an elite unit so they can use this weapon with more accuracy but at the end of all FG42 is worst than Mp44.

von_Kasbegi414
03-08-2010, 01:56 PM
together with all contras, the FG42 was too heavy, too expensive and it wasnt very goood rifle for the paratroopers. so its why the MP44 and later the StG45M was envisioned as adecuate weapon for them, or the newly version of FG developed at the end of 1944, called FG-45 invented in Knorr-Bremse factory.

The allied soldiers- like Brits, have their Stens and Enfields already by them, same when they were dropped (possibly) from the planes as parachutes.

But in Malta were the Brits in position of defenders which had all weapons and equipment near them.

Germans did not even predicate that the boxes with weapons would fall far from the range of their freshly landed paratrooper units- and namely in Malta operation it caused some heavier losses for Germans, when they must defend against the Brits and were armed only with pistols and grenades....until some of them went to collect some drop boxes with machineguns, rifles and MPs along with their ammunition :army:

v.K.

bas
03-14-2010, 09:35 PM
A nice collection of photographs (including some from my website) but I'm not sure how well you are authenticating them since a couple are photoshops and others show what is widely considered a forged gun.

If you are interested in this series of weapon I would strongly recommend you get a copy of "Sturmgewehr! From Firepower to Striking Power" by Hans-Dieter Handrich it is an excellent well researched work with a lot of good material. It will also correct a couple of misconceptions you have.