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Kregs
01-20-2010, 01:14 PM
I started this thread to discuss the fate of returning Russian POWs to the Soviet Union after capitivity in Germany..

I have a question about reliability on the wikipedia page. It states that most returning POWs from Germany were sent to "filitration" camps where the vast majority were released. The break down wikipedia offers is 90 percent were cleared by 1944 and 8 were sent to Siberia to serve prison sentences.

But what is confusing when you read accounts of the gulag "waves" and punishments of POWs after World War II in books such as "Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "Third Reich at War" by Richard Evans (he states that the POWs weren't rehibilited until the 1990s), "Enemies of the state" by Donald Critchlow. When you read any of these books the POWs condemned were more than the stated amount by the wikipedia page:

Soviet reprisals against former POWs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_prisoners_of_war_(Nazi_Germany)#Soviet_repr isals_against_former_POWs

I am confused by not only the literature that states that insinuates that "all" Soviet POWs were sent to gulags immediately after liberation, but other records that state otherwise. There are obviously two contradictory stories here, so I am wondering whether there is any reliable information detailing the fate of Russian POWs immediately after release from Nazi camps.

Also, what are these "filitration camps" that are talked about? What did they entail?

Egorka
01-20-2010, 02:32 PM
... so I am wondering whether there is any reliable information detailing the fate of Russian POWs immediately after release from Nazi camps.What would you take for "reliable information"?

Egorka
01-20-2010, 04:00 PM
Specially for you! Special price - you are my friend!
http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164432#post164432

Kregs
01-20-2010, 06:39 PM
Specially for you! Special price - you are my friend!
http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164432#post164432

Interesting. It's also interesting to note that after Germany was defeated Russian POWs were still considered traitors to the Motherland.

Also, it's interesting to note that he didn't deny the fact that POWs didn't lose all citizenship/status after the war, but were subjected to rounds of interrogations. But, one has to keep in mind that this was just one interrogator who happened to be in a good mood at that particular moment. IF not, poor guy would have served a sentence in siberia and/or had to put his parents through the same hell that destroyed the careers of many great men.

I find it difficult to accept that a POW is automatically a traitor and needs to be hung, but hey surrendering to the enemy is in violation of No. 270. There's isn't any wiggle room through that rule.

Thanks for the interview. I sincerely enjoyed it.

Egorka
01-21-2010, 01:18 AM
But, one has to keep in mind that this was just one interrogator who happened to be in a good mood at that particular momentHow do you know that it was "just one" in "good mood at that particular moment"???

And the other question again:
What would you take for "reliable information"?

Emchista
01-22-2010, 07:27 AM
In "Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945", historian Catherine Merridale goes to great pains to decribe the Draconian measures imposed by Stalin to ensure that returning Soviet Soldiers (ex-POW's or not) were not "tainted" by any tinge of admiration for the Western Capitalism they may have been exposed to. (Some of the the first-person accounts she that quotes are really quite heartbreaking.) Add to this Stalin's paranoid suspicions that Russian POW's might have been "turned" by their captors, and you can see that the resulting injustice in the form of the "Traitor" label was inevitable.

("Ivan's War", by the way, is a "cultural" rather than a "military" history of Russia during (and immediately after) the Great Patriotic War. Merridale -- a British Scholar--- has sifted through over 200 documents, many in the form of recently-released archival material, and mixed her findings with veterans' recollections and personal observations based on her own years of travelling throughout Soviet and Post-Soviet Russia. It's very readable, and as for "objectivity" -- it doesn't get much better than this! )

Kregs
01-22-2010, 12:59 PM
How do you know that it was "just one" in "good mood at that particular moment"???

Because of what Gregory said: his interrogator was in a good mood and was very pleasant with him. I can imagine what would happen to poor Gregory if the said interrogator was in a particularly nasty mood or insisted that he was a "traitor" no matter the circumstances of his surrendering to the Germans. His life was in this stranger's hands. It would be rather easy to chuck him into the gulag if he were in a bad mood wouldn't it?


And the other question again:

What would you take for "reliable information"?

I would take information such as books, documents, interviews, newspapers articles, et, etc that is good, truthful information. I especially look for information that would illuminate the subject matter.

Egorka
01-22-2010, 03:54 PM
Because of what Gregory said: his interrogator was in a good mood He did not say that interogator was in "good mood". Please re-read.


I would take information such as books, documents, interviews, newspapers articles, et, etc that is good, truthful information. I especially look for information that would illuminate the subject matter.
The inmates of the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD belonged to so called " particular contigent".

The particular contigent consisted of 3 categories of people:

POWs and servicemen encircled by the enemy.
German police servicemen collaborators and other civilians suspected of collaboration.
Civilian men of draft age who lived on the German occupied territory.

From the end of 1941 to 1 October 1944 they received 421.199 persons (1st category - 354.592 ; 2nd category - 40.062 ; 3rd category - 26.545 ).
For the same period the following number of people left the filtration camps: 335.487 (319.239, 3.061 and 13.187 respectivly).

Of the mentioned 354.592 of the 1st category (POW and enemy encircled servicemen) background was checked and then send to:


249.416 - sent to Army units for service.
30.749 - sent to civil and military industry.
5.924 - sent for service as NKVD servicemen.
11.556 - arrested by NKVD (of which 2.083 for espionage charges)
5.347 - left for various reasons (to hospitals, deceased, ect).
51.601 - still undergoing background check.


In 1944 - 1946 - 4,2 million repatriants arrived to USSR.
6,5% (app. 273.000 people) of those were regarded as "particular contigent" and were assembled in the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD for background check.


seource: http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Author/Russ/Z/Zemskov/Articles/ZEMSKOV.HTM

Kregs
01-22-2010, 06:18 PM
He did not say that interogator was in "good mood". Please re-read.

I'll give you he didn't state it specifically, but other parts suggest that he was in a substantially better mood than the previous interrogation. When you are "friendly" towards another person doesn't it usually mean that you are in a "good mood"?

From the interview:
When I ended my narration, the investigator was silent for a while and then said: “Well, you dismissed for now… For now… Expect the next interrogation session.” After two weeks the guards called me in again. Unlike the first session he was friendly


The inmates of the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD belonged to so called " particular contigent".


The particular contigent consisted of 3 categories of people:

POWs and servicemen encircled by the enemy.
German police servicemen collaborators and other civilians suspected of collaboration.
Civilian men of draft age who lived on the German occupied territory.

From the end of 1941 to 1 October 1944 they received 421.199 persons (1st category - 354.592 ; 2nd category - 40.062 ; 3rd category - 26.545 ).
For the same period the following number of people left the filtration camps: 335.487 (319.239, 3.061 and 13.187 respectivly).

Of the mentioned 354.592 of the 1st category (POW and enemy encircled servicemen) background was checked and then send to:


249.416 - sent to Army units for service.
30.749 - sent to civil and military industry.
5.924 - sent for service as NKVD servicemen.
11.556 - arrested by NKVD (of which 2.083 for espionage charges)
5.347 - left for various reasons (to hospitals, deceased, ect).
51.601 - still undergoing background check.


In 1944 - 1946 - 4,2 million repatriants arrived to USSR.
6,5% (app. 273.000 people) of those were regarded as "particular contigent" and were assembled in the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD for background check.


seource: http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Author/Russ/Z/Zemskov/Articles/ZEMSKOV.HTM


What is the point of giving me these statistics? It's not that I don't doubt that several POWs were sent to the gulags for espionage charges or were subjected to several rounds of interrogation...

Egorka
01-23-2010, 02:19 AM
Firstly, since I myself translated the Gregory's account I know that he didn't reffer to the interrogators mood, but to his attitude. True that these two are And may be linked to each other, but Gregory didn't imply that.
Therefor claming, like you did, that Gregory was incredibly lucky that just one interrogator was in a good mood on that one day is wrong.

Secondly, regarding the statistics. I sugest that you think hard and descide for your self what a hack you want to find out. Then please formulate your request clearly.
So far I provided you information exactly in responce to your request as stated in the last two paragraphs of the oppening post.

rav4
03-02-2010, 09:51 PM
Interesting. It's also interesting to note that after Germany was defeated Russian POWs were still considered traitors to the Motherland.

Also, it's interesting to note that he didn't deny the fact that POWs didn't lose all citizenship/status after the war, but were subjected to rounds of interrogations. But, one has to keep in mind that this was just one interrogator who happened to be in a good mood at that particular moment. IF not, poor guy would have served a sentence in siberia and/or had to put his parents through the same hell that destroyed the careers of many great men.

I find it difficult to accept that a POW is automatically a traitor and needs to be hung, but hey surrendering to the enemy is in violation of No. 270. There's isn't any wiggle room through that rule.

Thanks for the interview. I sincerely enjoyed it.

Not only were Russian POW’s considered traitors, but so were Russians who had been sent to work in Germany as forced labourers. Many were shipped to Siberia.

Egorka
03-02-2010, 11:39 PM
Not only were Russian POW’s considered traitors, but so were Russians who had been sent to work in Germany as forced labourers. Many were shipped to Siberia.
Interesting. Could you please elaborate on the second point.

rav4
03-03-2010, 10:33 PM
Interesting. Could you please elaborate on the second point.

There are a couple of links that might interest you;

http://www.fortfreedom.org/h16.htm

http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/1/4/Lutton371.html

It's a lot of reading. Not very flattering to the British, Americans or the Russians.

rav4
03-03-2010, 10:49 PM
Interesting. Could you please elaborate on the second point.

Egorka, you are keeping me busy searching for info.:)

http://www.dpcamps.org/repatriation.html

Egorka
03-04-2010, 04:13 PM
That is interesting.
So can you summorise in your own words, please.

In the mean while you can read the text of the oath writen by Cossack leader Pyotr Krasnov himself:


«I swear and promise in front of the God Almighty and The Holly Gosspel, that I will be faithful to The Leader of the New Europe and The German nation - Adolf Hitler, whom I will faithfully serve and battle against Bolshevism, selflessly and to the last drop of my blood.

I will whole-heartedly follow all the laws and orders issued by the superiors assigned by the Leader of the German nation - Adolf Hitler.

In a field, in fortresses, in trenches, on seas,in the sky and on land, everywhere in battle I will bravely fight the enemy and will serve faithfully together with the German armed forces protecting New Europe and my dear army against the Bolshevik slavery and until comlete victory over Bolshevism and its allies.
...»

BTW, "and its allies" is you - Canada.

rav4
03-04-2010, 06:28 PM
That is interesting.
So can you summorise in your own words, please.

In the mean while you can read the text of the oath writen by Cossack leader Pyotr Krasnov himself:


«I swear and promise in front of the God Almighty and The Holly Gosspel, that I will be faithful to The Leader of the New Europe and The German nation - Adolf Hitler, whom I will faithfully serve and battle against Bolshevism, selflessly and to the last drop of my blood.

I will whole-heartedly follow all the laws and orders issued by the superiors assigned by the Leader of the German nation - Adolf Hitler.

In a field, in fortresses, in trenches, on seas,in the sky and on land, everywhere in battle I will bravely fight the enemy and will serve faithfully together with the German armed forces protecting New Europe and my dear army against the Bolshevik slavery and until comlete victory over Bolshevism and its allies.
...»

BTW, "and its allies" is you - Canada.

From what I have read Peter Krasnov had fought against the Bolsheviks since the October Revolution, so nothing had changed in his thinking.

Not sure what this has to do the repatriation of forced labourers to Siberia?

Egorka
03-05-2010, 12:40 PM
From what I have read Peter Krasnov had fought against the Bolsheviks since the October Revolution, so nothing had changed in his thinking.Well, something must have changed because judging from the contect of the oath Mr. Krasnov was fighting for "New Europe" and "the leader Adolf Hitler".


Not sure what this has to do the repatriation of forced labourers to Siberia?it has something to do with the links you posted previously. Unless of course their have nothing to do with the topic either.


So "repatriation of the forced labourers to Siberia" - can you please make an overview of the subject and mention who, when and how many were send to Siberia for which charges.
Else it is difficult to have a discussion without specific points mentioned.

rav4
03-05-2010, 10:54 PM
Well, something must have changed because judging from the contect of the oath Mr. Krasnov was fighting for "New Europe" and "the leader Adolf Hitler".

it has something to do with the links you posted previously. Unless of course their have nothing to do with the topic either.


So "repatriation of the forced labourers to Siberia" - can you please make an overview of the subject and mention who, when and how many were send to Siberia for which charges.
Else it is difficult to have a discussion without specific points mentioned.

I think that Krasnov was more interested in fighting Stalin, and he would have sided with anyone who was opposed to him.

“How many were sent to Siberia?” Who can answer such a question? How many perished in the Gulag? I suspect that even the Russian government could not answer such questions. My remark in post #11 refers to forced labours being sent to Siberia, and I think some of the links I have provided substantiates that as fact.

Egorka
03-06-2010, 06:50 AM
I think that Krasnov was more interested in fighting Stalin, and he would have sided with anyone who was opposed to him. Exactly! Quite stupid on his part.

“How many were sent to Siberia?” Who can answer such a question? How many perished in the Gulag? I suspect that even the Russian government could not answer such questions. My remark in post #11 refers to forced labours being sent to Siberia, and I think some of the links I have provided substantiates that as fact.Well you did not say anything specific about the subject except some anti Soviet slogans. It is not cool, man.

If you have a point, then please be free to present it and back it up your self. I will be glad to discuss to the best of my ability and time available.

rav4
03-07-2010, 05:25 PM
I’m sorry if you think that some of the articles were anti Soviet but some of the comments were not exactly pro British or American either. It has always bothered me, being born in England, that Winston Churchill was involved in the repatriation of Russians from Europe, and now I read that a future Prim Minister, Anthony Eden was also involved. Do you believe that everything stated in those articles about the Allies is correct, and the comments about the Soviets are wrong?

Egorka
03-08-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't mind them being anti-Soviet, but there should be balance to everything.
Author of one of the articles errorneously pedals the view in which USSR was somehow guilty in the death of Soviet POWs in German captivity. Then he speaks of repatriation of Cossacks from Lienz. Those were Nazi collaborators fighting for "New Europe" and "Leader Adolf Hitler", regardless of their relation to Communist goverment. Only their liders were executed. The rest of them were sent to exile, from which they were released in 1955. I will give you a couple of quotes about it in the next post.
And then there is the article about repatriation of Ukrainians wrom the western territories. Piculiarly enough it is apealing in the the first paragraph to Geneva Convention. How can one reffer to the Geneva Convention of 1949 to analise the event taking place several years earlier?

In the mean while the fact is that out of app. 4.2 millions displaced Soviet citizens only 6.5% (app. 275000) were subject to background check. And it does not mean that all of them were prosecuted after that.

forager
03-08-2010, 01:46 PM
I think some folks confuse the Russian people with the totalitarian government of the USSR.

Under Stalin, nobody buy him made the rules.
He was a madman of near un rivalled proprtions.

He so disrespected his own people he instituted the military rules forbidding any kind of surrender or being captured.
He felt they needed that for motivation.

His minions were willing and capable of performing any actions they were directed to do.

Including murdering or sending to Gulags anybody they were directed to.

The Russian people eventually overthrew this system and are still struggling to get things right.

rav4
03-08-2010, 10:51 PM
I think some folks confuse the Russian people with the totalitarian government of the USSR.

Under Stalin, nobody buy him made the rules.
He was a madman of near un rivalled proprtions.

He so disrespected his own people he instituted the military rules forbidding any kind of surrender or being captured.
He felt they needed that for motivation.

His minions were willing and capable of performing any actions they were directed to do.

Including murdering or sending to Gulags anybody they were directed to.

The Russian people eventually overthrew this system and are still struggling to get things right.

I really hope that you don’t think I am talking about the Russian people negatively. I have been a guest of Russian people many times with ten trips to Ukraine and one to Siberia., and I can honestly say that they are the most gracious hosts that you could wish to meet. Having said that I must agree with you about the “totalitarian government of the USSR”.

Chevan
04-04-2010, 01:49 PM
Author of one of the articles errorneously pedals the view in which USSR was somehow guilty in the death of Soviet POWs in German captivity. Then he speaks of repatriation of Cossacks from Lienz. Those were Nazi collaborators fighting for "New Europe" and "Leader Adolf Hitler", regardless of their relation to Communist goverment. Only their liders were executed. The rest of them were sent to exile, from which they were released in 1955.

In 1951-52 mate..
The 6 of the former "SS-cossaken" top leaders have been sentenced to death ( Krasnov , Shkuro and ets) the about 150 officers got a prison ( 10-20 years )
The rest were sent to special settlers-camps( not GULAG) for SIX years.
In 1951-52 all of them have been liberated...
it was extremaly soft and ..human for the time when the man for theft might to get about 10 years of gulag..