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malarz_russ@hotmail.com
11-14-2009, 02:51 AM
Heya, all!

Everyone is familar with the U. S. standard issue sidearm of WWII and after, the M1911A1. Originally adopted in 1911 as the M1911, improvements led to the M1911A1 in 1924, with over 2.7 million of them procured for American military service until their replacement in 1985.

But how about the non-typical M1911's?

There is the M1911 modified for Air Service (US Army Air Service) during WWI. Fed from a extended 25 round magazine, and equiped with a mesh cage to catch ejected casings.

http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/data/500/US_M1911.jpg

There was also a production simplified pistol, in .45 ACP, using M1911 components and made out of stamped steel.

http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/photo/data/500/Stamped_45_ACP.jpg

How about a stocked, selective fire version? The Germans had their Artillery Luger, and the British had a "longer ranged" stocked version of the Browning, but how about the U. S.? All I've found was this video... I don't remember where I originally found the link (d'oh!) but do recall that it was mentioned that a limited number of these were "officially" produced for possible issue as aircrew defensive weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXh3nRd1K8U

Post what you know!

Russ
Proud son of Rose and Wes

Deaf Smith
11-14-2009, 09:53 PM
I'm not sureif it was Col. Davis Schilling or not, but I remember one of the well known figher pilots in the ETO made a .45 1911 into a machinepistol.

Deaf

malarz_russ@hotmail.com
11-15-2009, 02:37 AM
Converting a M1911 to fire full auto is not very difficult.

Many years ago, as an Army MP, my MP company had the damndest time getting .45 ACP ammo to shoot at the range. The plan was for the whole company to qualify / requalify with our sidearms (M1911A1's), but we never got enough ammo to do that. All of a sudden one year, we got a LOAD of .45 ACP ammo! The powers that be must have taken our yearly requests, added them together, and then doubled or tripled it, and then sent us the ammo. This caused much consternation... see, typical mindless bueracracy that the military was, if you request something, but then don't use it all up for whatever task it was intended for, never mind how obscenely over the top the issue is, than the determination is made that "you" really didn't need so much, and following issues will take that into account. Pretty much a "damned if you do, and double damned if you don't" situation.

So, after the entire company shoots their quals, a hugh amount of ammo is still left. Company commander, on advice of supply sergeant, orders that ammo has to be "shot up". A small detachment of men, under the watchful eyes of an ex-armorer, makes "adjustments" to their weapons allowing them to fire full-auto. The rest of the company procedes to open up, unpack, and fill pistol magazines so the shooters can shoot up our over abundance. Having nothing more then the standard 7 round magazines standard to the M1911, it took a little bit of time, but, eventually, the "mission" was accomplished.

Without going into definately illegal / criminal details, the "adjustments" were easily done without handtools (other than a pocketknife, perhaps). The difference between the gun in the video and these was the selector on the factory "modified" weapon.

I've read and heard dicussions about the relative ease that many WWII weapons were converted to full-auto fire. I think it's here on ww2incolor that there's a post about M1 Rifles (Garands) being GI modified into full-auto rifles... not bad except for only having an 8 round capacity!

Russ
Proud son of Rose and Wes

Rising Sun*
11-15-2009, 04:36 AM
This caused much consternation... see, typical mindless bueracracy that the military was, if you request something, but then don't use it all up for whatever task it was intended for, never mind how obscenely over the top the issue is, than the determination is made that "you" really didn't need so much, and following issues will take that into account. Pretty much a "damned if you do, and double damned if you don't" situation.

Which is why my and other reserve units had an annual 'yippee shoot', to fire off every live round we could find, to make sure our allocation wasn't reduced the next year.

Probably not a lot of training value, but bloody good fun.

tankgeezer
11-15-2009, 08:15 AM
Not to mention all of the paperwork needed to turn in unused ammunition. I'm not sure the military pipeline has a "return" in it. They dont seem to understand the idea at all. :)

forager
04-06-2010, 11:08 AM
GI mods are more fairy tales than reality.

You want a piece that is reliable and accurate.

Mods are niether.
A FA Garand would be good for a boat anchor.

Can't say that some folks didn't monkey with weapons-just not a common or allowed activity.

I did have a cast off M2 carbine in VN that had a cut off barrel and stock.
I saw a few M79s with the same treatment.

Being irregular, we had a bit more room for such shenanigans.

SonOfWWIIVet
06-12-2010, 09:35 AM
Just a few years ago, the DON procured some NEW M1911A1s manufactured by Kimber for Fleet Marine Forces. I guess improved sights, tighter tolerances, improved safety features similar to the new Series 80 civilian Colts and some improved ergonomic features could be considered "non-typical." I liked the old M1911A1 service pistols that we were issued for security duty when I was in the Submarine Service over 30 years ago, but I am confident that they are all gone now. The newest one would have been 65 years old this year.

imi
09-23-2010, 05:55 PM
I saw original Colt1911 in a ww1 museum,very nice pistol.
Can anyone post here some image from the 1911A1 using under ww2?
(I try to search but found nothing)

SonOfWWIIVet
09-24-2010, 05:43 PM
I saw original Colt1911 in a ww1 museum,very nice pistol.
Can anyone post here some image from the 1911A1 using under ww2?
(I try to search but found nothing)


Below is a link to an image of a World War I-era .45 M1911 government auto-pistol as used by U.S. troops in World War I. I hope it comes out.

http://handguns.canadaguns.ca/images/1911m_handgun_canada.jpg

Note that they had lanyard rings on the base of the magazines as well as the pistol itself. That purpose was for mounted cavalry use. Remember, the M1911 was adopted in 1912 when horse cavalry units were very common. The metal to metal fitting was excellent on these early pistols and the finish was a beautiful deep blue. The grips were checkered walnut with diamond shaped reliefs around the grip screws.

Later pistols made between the world wars and during World War II had arched mainspring housings, shortened triggers, more room for the trigger finger against the frame, brown plastic grips and they were Parkerized using the oxidation process which left a dull green/gray color. They also looked good in their own way, but only after many years of use and cleaning. Finally the manufacturers of the older pistols (1911s) were Colt, the government owned Springfield Armory, Remington Arms Company (RAC), and North American Arms of Canada. There were about 700,000 M1911 service pistols produced from 1912 to about 1924. There were about 2.2 million of the newer M1911A1 service pistols produced from 1925 to 1945 by Remington-Rand, Colt, Ithaca, Union Switch & Signal and Singer in order of most produced. During World War II, 1911s and 1911A1s were issued without regard to design and most of the parts were interchangeable.

After 1945, there were no more frames and slides produced, but there were still production periods of new barrels, bushings, springs, magazines, grips, and other small parts until the very late 60s. In 1986, the M1911A1 was "officially" replaced by the 9mm M9 Beretta service pistol (about 700,000 to date) and production continues to the present. The M1911A1 continued as a "supplemental issue" pistol until 1991 after the 91 Persian Gulf War where many were still in use by Army National Guard units and some Navy and Marine units. The regular Army, Air Force and Coast Guard had already transitioned to the newer pistol.

If you see contemporary images of M1911A1 pistols in use today, they will be a limited purchase of Kimber 1911A1s purchased by the Navy for the Fleet Marine Forces Afloat for boarding parties.

imi
09-25-2010, 02:55 AM
Below is a link to an image of a World War I-era .45 M1911 government auto-pistol as used by U.S. troops in World War I. I hope it comes out.

thanks,very nice one!

SonOfWWIIVet
09-25-2010, 10:00 AM
Below is another link. It is an image comparing the World War I M1911 service pistol and the later M1911A1 service pistol most common during World War II. It is interesting to note that the U.S. produced 900,000 Smith & Wesson .38 special service revolvers as supplementary sidearms too, but that is another thread.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CbwnjooteyI/SL2TF0NoCkI/AAAAAAAASGs/OkB0lzMLlVI/s1600-h/479px-M1911-M1911A1.jpg

imi
09-25-2010, 10:11 AM
much better the A1 better handling,faster firing.
The 1911 is more robust with sharp lines.
If anyone have good quality photo from the 1911 or the A1 using in field under ww2,it would be nice!

imi
09-25-2010, 03:22 PM
what do you think about this version?
http://www.relics.org.uk/popup_image.php?ID=567

SonOfWWIIVet
09-25-2010, 03:42 PM
It looks like all of the finish is gone, or perhaps it was painted silver. I noticed the grips look painted? :confused:

SonOfWWIIVet
09-26-2010, 11:53 AM
imi, actually finding a 1911 pistol in use during the World War I period is more difficult than I thought. I found this link of a group of American soldiers, c. World War I, perhaps before they deployed to Europe. Since they are "all" armed with pistols, I have to assume that they are horse cavalrymen. Like the infantry, they would have also been armed with standard issue M1903 service rifles as indicated by their cartridge belts. The pistol would have been used as an offensive weapon in the saddle while the service rifle would have been used when the troopers were dismounted.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1368/1279927021_7eb6e9c4a8_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/freeparking/1279927021/&usg=__8T6zB2qsDmtH-FJtdq7E0Omm-L0=&h=479&w=640&sz=143&hl=en&start=94&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=WJEYjYP1HHDemM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Du.s.%2B.45%2Bpistols%2Bat%2Bwar%26sta rt%3D80%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26 tbs%3Disch:1

Deaf Smith
09-26-2010, 07:24 PM
My understanding is Pershing wanted every GI at the front to have a pistol. The idea was they would use the pistols in both trench fighting and repelling frontal assaults.

But there simply was not that may pistols, either 1911s or 1917 revolvers.

Deaf

SonOfWWIIVet
09-26-2010, 08:04 PM
That is certainly true enough. Actually, we did not have enough of ANY small arms in standard issue. Recruits drilled with .30-40 Krag service rifles and approximately 500,000 U.S. made Russian [cancelled] contract M91 Mosen-Nagants re-designated U.S. Rifle M-1916. M1903 service rifles were augmented with M1917 service rifles which could be manufactured quickly by three seperate companies. Approximately 250,000 .45ACP M1917 service revolvers in the form of government purchased Colt New Service and Smith & Wesson Triple Lock revolvers augmented less than 400,000 M1911 service pistols when America went to war. America's only machine guns were the .30 Lewis machine guns until the introduction of the .30 Browning machine gun. In those "pre-submachine gun" days, some American troops were issued 12 gauge Winchester Model 97 and Remington Model 10 pump shotguns and brass cased 00 buckshot for close "in the trench" warfare.

SonOfWWIIVet
09-26-2010, 08:47 PM
Here is another photo of a .45 M1911 in action.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.2id.korea.army.mil/i/history/wwi_training.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D232209%26page%3D4&usg=__P3L9nhPFsDdxyIn7ZrMnygYrRrc=&h=492&w=800&sz=364&hl=en&start=2&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=NBBfc0ARR6Nt0M:&tbnh=88&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAmerican%2Bdoughboys%2Bwith%2Bpistols %26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Di sch:1


The image appears to be French and American personnel during target practice. The Americans appear to be U.S. Marines according to their "EGA" (Eagle, Globe and Anchor) devise on the front of their campaign hats. U.S. Army soldiers would not have had any hat devises. Rather, they would have had yellow, light blue or red hat cords with tassels to indicate cavalry, infantry or artillery. Other colors, or combinations of colors, would have indicated Signal Corps, Medical Corps, Quartermaster Corps, etc. There are no hat cords on these campaign hats. Also, like the Navy, Marines wore canvas leggings more often than the European inspired putties that were more common in the Army. The rifle armed Marines in the prone positions are clearly armed with M1903 Springfield service rifles distinguished by their barrel mounted rear sights and exposed blade front sights. The M1911 armed Marine standing in the foreground is wearing what appears to be an M1912 or 1916 holster.

imi
09-26-2010, 11:48 PM
imi, actually finding a 1911 pistol in use during the World War I period is more difficult than I thought. I found this link of a group of American soldiers, c. World War I, perhaps before they deployed to Europe. Since they are "all" armed with pistols, I have to assume that they are horse cavalrymen. Like the infantry, they would have also been armed with standard issue M1903 service rifles as indicated by their cartridge belts. The pistol would have been used as an offensive weapon in the saddle while the service rifle would have been used when the troopers were dismounted.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1368/1279927021_7eb6e9c4a8_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/freeparking/1279927021/&usg=__8T6zB2qsDmtH-FJtdq7E0Omm-L0=&h=479&w=640&sz=143&hl=en&start=94&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=WJEYjYP1HHDemM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Du.s.%2B.45%2Bpistols%2Bat%2Bwar%26sta rt%3D80%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26 tbs%3Disch:1

wow excellent image thanks!
I also search many hours in the internet for pictures from the Colt 45 in ww2,but found nothing,or found a few not too good quality photo from the japanese front,very sad,because it's a historical handgun.

SonOfWWIIVet
09-27-2010, 09:45 AM
This site, 1911 Forum.Com seems to have the most images of .45 M1911 and M1911A1 service pistols in actual use and carry that I have found to date. They cover scenes from the Punitive Expedition in Mexico in 1916 through the World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, Cold War, Persian Gulf War, the OEF-OIF period, and some interesting photos of newly manufactured Springfield Armory M1911A1 pistols in use by today's Fleet Marine Force. The images span a century of service with the M1911 and M1911A1 service pistol.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.2id.korea.army.mil/i/history/wwi_training.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D232209%26page%3D4&usg=__P3L9nhPFsDdxyIn7ZrMnygYrRrc=&h=492&w=800&sz=364&hl=en&start=2&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=NBBfc0ARR6Nt0M:&tbnh=88&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAmerican%2Bdoughboys%2Bwith%2Bpistols %26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Di sch:1

imi
09-27-2010, 02:05 PM
http://oi54.tinypic.com/24vjp51.jpg

SonOfWWIIVet
09-27-2010, 03:25 PM
http://oi54.tinypic.com/24vjp51.jpg

Color often brings out the reality of the scene. I wish these troopers were wearing their brimmed campaign hats instead of their garrison caps. It would be easier to confirm their cavalry status if I saw yellow cords on top of their brims. I think the M1910 web gear for rifle cartridges and the holsters hanging on them confirm that though. The European influenced leg putties make me think that the photograph was made in France or elsewhere overseas. Usually, American troops photographed in the U.S. were still wearing the stiff cotton canvas leggings that used hooks and cords. Thanks again for the color version.

imi
09-27-2010, 06:09 PM
Thanks again for the color version.

You're welcome,I'm more than expert in the german military clothes,but I try to search the right colors to this nice photo

muscogeemike
10-05-2010, 07:24 PM
I've read that about half of the US "Doughboys" were issued "American Enfields" and that Sgt. York actually used one of these rifles and not a Springfield.

SonOfWWIIVet
10-06-2010, 07:03 AM
That is certainly true. There were 2.39 million Model 1917 service rifles build by Eddiestone Arsenal, Remington UMC and Winchester Repeating Arms in less than two years of production. They were manufactured after U.S. Ordnance Department revisions were made to the Pattern 1914 machine tools that had earlier produced 1.5 million Pattern 14s for the British. The British contracts had just been filled and the machinery was still in place and idle when the U.S. entered into the Great War. The revisions included changing the caliber from .303 British to .30-06, different sights and changes to the bolt head. They were easier and faster to mass produce than the M1903 Springfield service rifle and almost as accurate at extended ranges. Their numbers in the field outnumbered M1903 service rifles by a margin of more than 3 to 2.

When World War I ended, M1917 production ended too. It was decided by the Army to continue M1903 production. The huge inventories of M1917s were used to fill National Guard armories with 200,000 used to arm the Philippine Scouts. Many saw service in World War II.

Deaf Smith
10-08-2010, 09:07 PM
I've read that about half of the US "Doughboys" were issued "American Enfields" and that Sgt. York actually used one of these rifles and not a Springfield.


True they were issued 1917s far more than '03s, and York used a 1911A1 and not the 'Luger' as shown in the show. They used the Luger cause they could get it to funcion with blanks, but couldn't get a 1911 at that time to function with them.

Deaf

muscogeemike
10-09-2010, 03:02 PM
Thanks, Deaf Smith. I love stuff like why they used the "Luger".

jamestallakson
05-06-2011, 09:33 PM
i love the 1911, my favorite pistol ever, i like it better than a 9mm but im sol since the military uses berettas and spec ops pretty much only use .45s oh well

tankgeezer
05-06-2011, 09:50 PM
i love the 1911, my favorite pistol ever, i like it better than a 9mm but im sol since the military uses berettas and spec ops pretty much only use .45s oh well
When you are old enough, you could always buy one for yourself, and shoot when you like. 21 isnt that far off. (that is assuming that you are not a nutter, or incarcerated, or otherwise unqualified to possess a firearm.)

skorzeny57
05-22-2011, 02:16 PM
much better the A1 better handling,faster firing.
The 1911 is more robust with sharp lines.
If anyone have good quality photo from the 1911 or the A1 using in field under ww2,it would be nice!

Here's my Colt 45 1911 A1 builded by COLT'S MFG.Co - Hartford CT in 1943.