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kallinikosdrama1992
11-06-2009, 06:50 AM
In most films of WWII i've seen , all the paratroopers , they carry some rope . From the movie i think the rope is to thin , so probably it's not for climbing , i guess:neutral:. Does anyone knows what was this rope for ?

Nickdfresh
11-06-2009, 10:28 AM
In most films of WWII i've seen , all the paratroopers , they carry some rope . From the movie i think the rope is to thin , so probably it's not for climbing , i guess:neutral:. Does anyone knows what was this rope for ?

I believe it was to give them an escape rope to climb down on if they were caught in a tree or church steeple or something. :)

forager
11-07-2009, 01:07 AM
Never saw nor heard of such a thing.

My father was 506th PIR in WW2 and I went to jump school in 1967.
I was on jump status 3 1/2 years.
I have seen one million paratrooper movies and clips and lived the real thing.
No ropes.

One method of climbing down from something is to deploy your reserve and climb down it.

Rising Sun*
11-07-2009, 08:00 AM
A length of rope, called a 'toggle rope' was standard issue for Australian troops in Vietnam.


The toggle rope, originally made of hemp with a timber toggle, was intended to be linked together for a variety of purposes. It was issued during the Vietnam War as 'Fibre rope assembly, single leg, polyester fibre, 1-in circ. 9ft long'. Although the timber toggle was no longer attached it was still universally known as a togle rope. http://www.remlr.com/roseworthy/issued_kit/index.html

My training at the time, which was derived from field experience, was that the toggle rope could be linked with other toggle ropes for various purposes, including turning over enemy bodies from a safe distance to avoid booby trap injuries.

Another use was to put a number of canteens on a rope and send one man to refill them, thus avoiding reducing the section / platoon effectiveness to any great extent.

A mate of mine found that this wasn't the best part of his service in Vietnam when various factors resulted in the wrong smoke being thrown as an air strike was called in when his platoon should have been out of the firing line. He saw what was coming but felt he was running in slow motion until he realised that he was dragging a swag of canteens he'd just filled. He moved a lot quicker when he slipped the toggle rope holding the canteens.

Rising Sun*
11-07-2009, 08:10 AM
And here is a toggle rope wound as I remember it, but the ones I knew didn't have the wooden toggle but otherwise were wound the same way.
http://cas.awm.gov.au/heraldry/REL34788

32Bravo
11-07-2009, 04:05 PM
We used the toggle ropes also, RS. The two main use we put them to were: linking any number of them togetherr to form a rope for river crossing; and to wrap around a log for log racing.

http://www.army.mod.uk/images/image-scroller/PARA_Insight_Course307.jpg

We normally carried them wrapped about our waists, fastened at the front by the toggle.

johnd
11-10-2009, 01:57 AM
thanks for that information. i didn't know much about paratroopers really.

bltjr1951
11-22-2009, 05:00 PM
Never saw nor heard of such a thing.


Scroll down this site. Here's a famous picture of Ike in WWII. Look at paratrooper on left. What's that hanging down?? A rope! Every paratrooper carried one.
Didn't anyone see "Band of Brothers"??
Google "paratrooper letdown rope" and see all the repros being sold.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_clothing_combat_ww2_airborne_paratroop ers.php

WWII Brits carried a toggle rope to make rope bridges in jungles.

Rising Sun*
11-23-2009, 05:12 AM
Scroll down this site. Here's a famous picture of Ike in WWII. Look at paratrooper on left. What's that hanging down?? A rope! Every paratrooper carried one.
Didn't anyone see "Band of Brothers"??
Google "paratrooper letdown rope" and see all the repros being sold.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_clothing_combat_ww2_airborne_paratroop ers.php

As I share the pilots' view that it is insanity to leap voluntarily into the sky from a perfectly serviceable aeroplane, I don't know what the letdown rope was intended to do.

Was it to enable a stranded paratrooper to descend from a tree etc?

Or did it carry the equipment bag suspended below him during his descent?

Deaf Smith
11-23-2009, 09:06 PM
Maybe they ment to throw it around a limb and swing from tree to tree like Tarzan.

After all, they were one tough bunch of fit men.

Deaf

bltjr1951
11-24-2009, 12:19 AM
what the letdown rope was intended to do.
Was it to enable a stranded paratrooper to descend from a tree etc?


Yes, yes it was. After jump, you never see them in pictures. They are dumped with chute and harness.

Ya know, it's amazing with this thing called "google", that you can search the WWW to see what a "let-down rope" is for. I had to buy books to read and look at pictures to see what WWII soldiers wore and used. "Band of Brothers" book doesn't mention rope in it's jump equipment info. Yet, the movie/series shows them with rope all over the jump field, one para calls it "this BS".
You should go to WWII reenactor's sites and read what some say. "If there's no picture, it never happened." Even Vets can't remember what they wore or used, unless they have a picture of themselves. After 65 years, I don't think I could remember what I wore or used either. One guy said he didn't remember what stuff was called, he was just issued it and everything was OD green. What did you have for lunch last month? People are even now trying to figure out what camo was worn in Desert Storm.
My first backpack, when I was 5, was a musette bag one of my family brought back.

BTW, that picture of Ike, in two of my books, it's been "cropped" so you don't see trooper with
rope.

Rising Sun*
11-30-2009, 04:35 AM
And here is a toggle rope wound as I remember it, but the ones I knew didn't have the wooden toggle but otherwise were wound the same way.
http://cas.awm.gov.au/heraldry/REL34788

And I saw one as I remember it this weekend in one of the many excellent displays of Vietnam gear at the Vietnam Veterans' Museum http://www.vietnamvetsmuseum.org/default.asp

The Historian
12-06-2009, 08:05 PM
People are even now trying to figure out what camo was worn in Desert Storm.

We wore "chocolate chip" in Desert Storm. Combat performance showed us that the camouflage wasn't really the best for desert warfare, so design went into the later "DCU" that was more similar to the woodland BDUs of the day

bltjr1951
12-11-2009, 12:50 PM
Don't want to hijack thread, but I've got a set of "chip" camo.
Some folks say that "woodland" camo was worn during "Desert Storm".

The Historian
12-14-2009, 10:14 PM
Most of the chemical-proof gear was printed in woodland BDU, so you see a lot of that in pics from Desert Storm. Then again, when you're in the desert, there's not much that can hide you anyways

bltjr1951
12-15-2009, 03:51 PM
Most of the chemical-proof gear was printed in woodland BDU, so you see a lot of that in pics from Desert Storm.

LOL, saw that last night while watching "Jarhead" DVD.
Guess that would confuse people.

As a side note, on WWII reenactor site, one guy said they were all dressed up as 6/6/1944 D-Day troops for a parade and people were asking if they were shipping out. So, some folk don't know what gear/uniform troops wear.

The Historian
12-15-2009, 09:36 PM
Ha, apparently some people haven't kept up with the times...

jamestallakson
05-06-2011, 09:37 PM
I believe it was to give them an escape rope to climb down on if they were caught in a tree or church steeple or something. :)

you are right, that is exactly what it was for, the would slide down the rope, rather than fall and brak bones

forager
05-11-2011, 12:30 PM
We were trained to deploy our reserves and climb down them.
Funniest thing I saw was a guy "bagged up" who had ended up inside the canopy.
He had to stay there a while as in training it was not good to cut up equipment.

We sometimes carried ropes fo aid in mountainous or hilly terrain.
We could rappel or just make aids from them.

Most things have many uses and different things used on different days.
Never a one anwer or use subject.

bltjr1951
06-18-2011, 06:28 PM
Guess I forgot to post this:
When the paratroopers were being started/trained, they copied from smoke jumpers.
So the fire fighters had ropes for getting down from trees, they did too.
Heck, at first they wore "football" helmets or cloth headgear and dropped their gear in crates to be found and unloaded.
As for reserve chutes, sometimes they weren't worn to carry more ammo/gear.

forager
06-19-2011, 03:31 PM
I would really like to see actual evidence where the use of reserves was curtailed for ammo/gear.
That is what we used tethered D bags for.
Also other containers.

Some early combat jumps were made from low altitudes where a reserve would not have been much good.
I have heard only tales about that.
Nobody is going to allow reserves being replaced for gear or ammo.
Comix, maybe.

Rising Sun*
06-20-2011, 05:51 AM
I would really like to see actual evidence where the use of reserves was curtailed for ammo/gear.
That is what we used tethered D bags for.
Also other containers.

Some early combat jumps were made from low altitudes where a reserve would not have been much good.
I have heard only tales about that.
Nobody is going to allow reserves being replaced for gear or ammo.
Comix, maybe.

Might there have been an especially important drop which broke the rules, something like the Doolittle planes flying without guns to save weight and create fuel storage space?

bltjr1951
06-25-2011, 12:09 PM
Read any non-fiction WW2 para book.
During war they went way beyond weight limits for ammo.
Guys were jumping with/over their weight in gear.
Experts now say it couldn't be done, yet they did it, history shows it.
Unless you're the type that doesn't believe that the war happened.

leccy
06-25-2011, 12:41 PM
There is a finite amount of weight you can jump with when coming down on the silk. Carry too much and risk either coming down too fast and hard and therefore injury or even chute failure.
During any conflict there were troops on the ground that preferred to carry more ammunition, in which case they invariably left other items behind. It was not the case of carry all your kit plus extra ammunition. You balanced out what you considered you would need with what you knew you would have to have.

bltjr1951
06-25-2011, 01:15 PM
Or you could be wearing all the correct weight of gear and chutes just to be killed when your plane was shot down.
Or you could be dropped into the ocean like some were and drowned.
Or you could have your gear in drop bag and never see it again after jump.
Or and what ifs abound.
I am just amazed that some will say "never happened" like they were there.

tankgeezer
06-25-2011, 01:53 PM
Or you could be wearing all the correct weight of gear and chutes just to be killed when your plane was shot down.
Or you could be dropped into the ocean like some were and drowned.
Or you could have your gear in drop bag and never see it again after jump.
Or and what ifs abound.
I am just amazed that some will say "never happened" like they were there.

Yet you say "happened" when you yourself were not there, how is that different? May I caution against such exuberance in posting until you have a bit more experience here.

bltjr1951
06-25-2011, 02:39 PM
Yet you say "happened" when you yourself were not there, how is that different? May I caution against such exuberance in posting until you have a bit more experience here.

Are you saying we shouldn't believe history books either?
Why are kids going to school if that's true?
I "quote" books I've read, not the fictional "Deathlands" or "Rat Bastards".
Just because I saw it in a movie doesn't call for a quote either.
As I said, read any non-fiction war book and learn what happened from the people that were there.
I'm a 60 year old man, I've got a little more experience than some.
I lost some kin folk in the war, my Grandmother worked for Boeing during that time, guess what she built.
I "wasn't there" either, but I believe what she told me.
In this day of "google" anyone can verify info about paratrooppers.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/dday/sfeature/sf_paratrooper.html
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/airborne.aspx
http://www.508pir.org/archival/magazines/yank_02.htm

tankgeezer
06-25-2011, 04:13 PM
Are you saying we shouldn't believe history books either?
Why are kids going to school if that's true?
I "quote" books I've read, not the fictional "Deathlands" or "Rat Bastards".
Just because I saw it in a movie doesn't call for a quote either.
As I said, read any non-fiction war book and learn what happened from the people that were there.
I'm a 60 year old man, I've got a little more experience than some.
I lost some kin folk in the war, my Grandmother worked for Boeing during that time, guess what she built.
I "wasn't there" either, but I believe what she told me.
In this day of "google" anyone can verify info about paratrooppers.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/dday/sfeature/sf_paratrooper.html
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/airborne.aspx
http://www.508pir.org/archival/magazines/yank_02.htm

You are brash for someone so light in the postcount, a congenial manner works best here.

bltjr1951
06-25-2011, 04:55 PM
We were trained to deploy our reserves and climb down them.

In what year?
In WW2 people were being trained to kill in a few weeks.
Have you asked your dad about any of this?
All of my family members that served are dead.
My father-in-law only told my wife a couple of things about his service. He almost died of hunger and was cold. Bastonge?
Her great uncle was at Iwo, I would like to ask him about stuff before he dies, but I hate to bring up bad memories.

Iron Yeoman
06-25-2011, 05:27 PM
In what year?
In WW2 people were being trained to kill in a few weeks.
Have you asked your dad about any of this?
All of my family members that served are dead.
My father-in-law only told my wife a couple of things about his service. He almost died of hunger and was cold. Bastonge?
Her great uncle was at Iwo, I would like to ask him about stuff before he dies, but I hate to bring up bad memories.

It might be bringing up bad memories but sadly the vets are getting fewer and fewer each year. You should try and record his experiences for posterity.

Rising Sun*
06-26-2011, 06:39 AM
In what year?

If you want to challenge members' qualifications to express opinions, at least do them the courtesy of (a) reading their relevant posts which may contain the answer to your question and save you from embarrassing yourself by questioning someone who knows what they're talking about, and (b) respecting their service experience in general and their relevant specialist service experience in particular.

In relation to (a) and (b) so far as forager is concerned, in #3 in this thread he said


I went to jump school in 1967.
I was on jump status 3 1/2 years.

Look at his avatar and read some more of his posts in other threads and you'll see that he is eminently qualified to express an opinion on the matters you question. He is certainly a lot better qualified than the rest of us who have no difficulty with the notion that the best way to reach the ground from a serviceable aeroplane is to be aboard it when it lands uneventfully at a properly constructed aerodrome. ;) :D


In WW2 people were being trained to kill in a few weeks.

Care to give some examples of American airborne troops doing this, or even any combat troops in any English-speaking army?

Basic training typically took a few months in English-speaking armies, followed by corps training of a similar or longer period, followed for specialist troops such as airborne by another similar or longer period.

As for US airborne, the 101st trained for about two years before going into action in 1944.

Rising Sun*
06-26-2011, 06:46 AM
P.S.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of forager's trainers at jump school in 1967 were WWII veterans, not least because I had WWII veterans training me a few years later, and if they passed on knowledge that allows him to express accurate opinions about WWII jumps.

leccy
06-26-2011, 07:42 AM
Are you saying we shouldn't believe history books either?
Why are kids going to school if that's true?
I "quote" books I've read, not the fictional "Deathlands" or "Rat Bastards".
Just because I saw it in a movie doesn't call for a quote either.
As I said, read any non-fiction war book and learn what happened from the people that were there.
I'm a 60 year old man, I've got a little more experience than some.
I lost some kin folk in the war, my Grandmother worked for Boeing during that time, guess what she built.
I "wasn't there" either, but I believe what she told me.
In this day of "google" anyone can verify info about paratrooppers.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/dday/sfeature/sf_paratrooper.html
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/airborne.aspx
http://www.508pir.org/archival/magazines/yank_02.htm


Read any non-fiction WW2 para book.
During war they went way beyond weight limits for ammo.
Guys were jumping with/over their weight in gear.
Experts now say it couldn't be done, yet they did it, history shows it.
Unless you're the type that doesn't believe that the war happened.

Ok where in any of those links does it say they discarded their emergency chutes or carried more weight than the chutes were allowed. It does say they carried up to their own weights, nothing new, soldiers have always carried heavy loads when on foot.


In what year?
In WW2 people were being trained to kill in a few weeks

Basic training for British Soldiers in WW2 was 8 weeks, followed by specialist training afterwards, strangely its still the same now (I actually did 7 weeks basic before going onto specialist courses in 1983).

Politeness and thought out posts get you further by the way.

bltjr1951
06-27-2011, 06:16 PM
Look at his avatar and read some more of his posts in other threads and you'll see that he is eminently qualified to express an opinion on the matters you question.

Please read post #3.

When I posted a link to an actual picture of WW2 with a "rope", did anyone say "yeah, they did have them"??
http://www.history.com/topics/d-day/media#d-day-paratroopers-geared-up

Any WW2 reenactor would back me up, cause they try to be as accurate as possible.
Which is why they make repro let down ropes, if they didn't use them why make repros?

Please read this story, you can find "reserve" to save time. I know, he's no "expert"
http://www.pathfindergroupuk.com/2008%20part%202.htm

From one WW2 book: "Fresh from basic training and four weeks jump school, they had arrived in Europe only a week or two before."

leccy
06-28-2011, 04:57 AM
Please read post #3.

When I posted a link to an actual picture of WW2 with a "rope", did anyone say "yeah, they did have them"??
http://www.history.com/topics/d-day/media#d-day-paratroopers-geared-up

Any WW2 reenactor would back me up, cause they try to be as accurate as possible.
Which is why they make repro let down ropes, if they didn't use them why make repros?

Please read this story, you can find "reserve" to save time. I know, he's no "expert"
http://www.pathfindergroupuk.com/2008%20part%202.htm

From one WW2 book: "Fresh from basic training and four weeks jump school, they had arrived in Europe only a week or two before."

WW2 re-enactors are not always correct or accurate, you get many different levels from the cool look type but not historically accurate, through the general idea is right all the way up to everything has to be original and perfect.

Ok so the pathfinder site says they were not issued a reserve chute not that they chose not to take it to carry more ammunition there is a difference.

Looks like these guys dropping wore reserve chutes
US WW2 Paras (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Paratroopers_fsa_8e00223.jpg)
US Paras Embarking (http://www.dday-overlord.com/img/para/us/parachutistes_americains_embarquement.jpg)
US Para with 40kg of equipment (http://www.dday-overlord.com/img/para/us/parachutiste_americain_40_kg.jpg)
And just to show I am not biased these have no reserve chute I can see.
Italian Paras with British Equipment on Op Herring, 26th March 1945 (http://www.congedatifolgore.com/news/fotonews/herring.jpg)

Seems it may have been down to the particular op as to whether they carried them or not and also what equipment they were issued.

A quote you yourself just posted from the book about training length
Fresh from basic training and four weeks jump school,
Not that they only had a couple of weeks training as you had originally posted. So how long was basic training, also the part they had arrived in Europe only a week or two before, so they arrived in Europe after a long sea journey to do what, join the reserve pool, join a unit and do a combat jump, join in the line as ground infantry. You need to put a quote in the context it is written for it to make sense.

forager
06-28-2011, 10:08 AM
My dad was 506th PIR. He joined them just after DDay and served througth the end.
He was wounded at Eindhoven and reissued during the stand down before Bastogne.

I once jumped a bunch of extra equipment on a training FTX.
I was incapable of moving with all the gear and was manhandled into the plane by four guys and shoved out by them as well.
As I mentioned, the drop bags were tethered by a 15 foot rope and we dropped them shortly before landing. This prevented oscillation which can kill you.
Weight is not that big of an issue as long as you can enter and exit the AC.

The training to combat in WW2, Korea and VN could be much shorter than some folks realize.
A matter of weeks is not far off at all in many cases.
The old 4 week jump school included a week of packing chutes-total waste of time and dropped early on.
An airborne q'd troop could have been in VN in 20 weeks.
Pretty much the same in WW2.
I believe my dad did basic, AIT, jump school, and immediately went over as a replacement.
Many of the guys I served with were old time paratroopers and sport jumpers.
Many literally had thousands of jumps and lots of stories.
There was a sport club at Ft Bragg and in 1967 there were guys with single digit "D" licenses.
I made "Distinguished Honor Graduate" of my BAC in 1967. Got a trophy and a couple letters.
I was very surprised even though I was very motivated.